Wednesday, May 30, 2012

Hoagland-heist: Pseudo-scientist bamboozled, left twisting in the wind

        Maximum kudos this week to Irene Gardner, for a brilliant and high-risk maneuver that exposed Richard Hoagland for the unprincipled fraud he is, in front of all his craven disciples.

        As regular readers of this blog know well, ever since his birthday on April 25th Hoagland has been begging the Branch Hoaglandians for cash to fund an expedition to Egypt on the occasion of the Venus transit, due on 5th/6th June. There he intended to repeat what he calls an "experiment" involving an Accutron watch. This blog, among others, has been strident in its criticism of the so-called experiment, citing the lack of baselines, controls and full hypothesis.

The trap set

        Here's how Irene's scam-bait went down. On 26th May at 10:00 she posted this to Hoagland's FB page (re-posted by permission):

Dear Mr Hoagland,
As a long time coast insider, and follower of your research I was most disappointed to hear that the planned mission to Giza had to be cancelled due to lack of funding. I have been a long time lurker on your Facebook page, and, of course on Enterprise. But, have been too overwhelmed by the technical content and scientific research that you present, to ask the many questions I have.

Therein lies the problem. I wanted to make a substantial contribution to your planned expedition to Giza. I could not afford the $80k envisaged cost, but perhaps only half of that. Without causing a huge argument with my partner. Here we strike the root of the argument. I maintain that a man who had been a curator, scientist, and, for heavens sake, a scientific advisor to a broadcasting legend. All before hitting 30 years of age. A man who has had his very life threatened because of his work. Must be on to something. That something, we, as a species need. Immediately.

My partner however completes the dichotomy. We discuss long and even longer the vaildity and veracity of your reasearch. He is an electronics engineer of some standing within the world of what I have heard he and his colleagues refer to as "negentropy." I am merely an IT consultant with a passion for your work, and, perhaps more honestly. Your enthusiasm. He challenged me to provide evidence of hyperdimensional physics. The prize being me being allowed to help fund your research. With some gusto I compiled a list of links to Enterprise, citing various papers on the subject. With particular emphasis on of your magnificent Cydonia work. I "MADE" him watch your presentation at the United Nations. He squirmed in his chair as you read out a letter from Dr Ghali to the audience. Nice moment for me.

To my dismay he called your work "junk science." Citing the fact that during earlier work at Coral Castle, and other significant locations you failed to provide a baseline and control before conducting your experiments. Please, please Richard can you categorically refute these allegations, and provide me proof positive of baseline and control. In return I will happily make up the shortfall on the Giza research mission. I apologise unreservedly should I have insulted a man of your standing in requiring such assurances. But, I made an agreement with my partner and I will abide by it.

I also realise that many people may think I am insencere. Therefore, should you require it. I will give you my cellphone number, place of employment and any other information you may require to substantiate the veracity of my offer.

Kindest regards
Irene Gardner.
        Hoagland's immediate reply was "If this is a serious offer, we should do this via a PM and private e-mail."

        The pseudo-scientist then engaged in internal debate for two days. The dilemma: He wants the dosh, but at what price? The baselines and controls for the Venus transit of 2004, the farce at Teotihuacan, the joke at Stonehenge, the recent solar eclipse—these things don't exist, of course, because he has no clue how to design a proper scientific experiment. So could he fake them up convincingly enough? Hmmmm....

The trap sprung

        On May 29th he made his decision. Too risky. His message to Irene (re-posted by permission):

Irene,

You know that can't happen in a "timely fashion," certainly not before the Venus Transit; have you ever dealt with "university review committees?" :)

However, thanks for your kind offer.

But, if you REALLY have been following our work as closely as you stated on Facebook (all the way back to my "Cronkite Days," if not my UN presentation on Cydonia in 1992, with the warm endorsement of the Secretary General of the UN himself!), to say nothing of my recent New York Times bestseller, "Dark Mission" (with Mike Bara), then you already know what we are doing and both its importance ... and its veracity.

If all that can't convince your partner that we're at least "worth a shot," then, sadly, no amount of additional information at this point can convince such an individual "who had to be made" to even watch my UN speech .... :)


The fact that you are allowing your partner to dictate "who" and "what" YOU can support, in ANY amount ... raises all kinds of additional issues; others have already given large donations to further this research, based SOLELY on what's on the public record. The fact that you cannot (or, will not ...) do the same, again, in any AMOUNT -- without demanding totally unreasonable quantities of raw, propriority [sic] data to turned over to TOTAL styrangers, and far ahead of its planned formal publication -- tells me you're NOT serious.

Again, if I'm misjudging you, or your situation, I'm sorry.
        Yesterday, Irene cross-posted that entire text to Hoagland's FB. He deleted it in about ten minutes, but we can assume some of the cult members saw it.
        
        Many of us already commented. I acknowledge ideas from Chris Lopes, Trekker, FlightSuit, Jourget et al.

* He does have a point that time would have been tight for a proper investigation of whatever flim-flam he might have come up with. But that might have been negotiable, we'll never know. It's a safe bet that Hoagland himself has never dealt with a university review committee, so how would he know how much time would have been needed? Irene posted to this blog "The Hoagland data would have been examined at the Dept of Electronics and Electrical Engineering at Glasgow."

* That "If you had been following our work..." is an absolutely standard Hoagland debating tactic. He uses it over and over again. It's simply a set-up for him to boast of achievements that are of almost Jurassic antiquity. Cronkite 40 years ago. The UN speech 20 years ago. Then comes the non sequitur. Irene is asked to believe that these achievements testify to the "importance and veracity" of the current effort to send him on a jaunt, with his girlfriend, to Egypt. What utter balderdash.

* Next he tries to undermine Irene's relationship with her partner. Classic cult tactics.

* Why does he consider the quantity of data requested "totally unreasonable"? It's simply what any real scientist would quite naturally supply without having to be asked.

* Turning over data to  "TOTAL styrangers" [sic] is what real scientists know as peer review. This part of the text is perhaps the most brilliant of all, exposing Hoagland's frequently-expressed wish to be taken seriously as a scientist as a gossamer-thin veil over the mentality of a fairground con-man.

* "far ahead of its planned formal publication"— WHAT????? In her original post, Irene cited "earlier work at Coral Castle, and other significant locations," not the recent solar eclipse. The Coral Castle farce was eight years ago, and of course totally ineligible for "formal publication" in any case, since it lacked any semblance of rigor and was broadcast to the millions of Coast-to-Coast AM listeners as it happened.

        Round-trip ticket for two, ABQ-CAI: $3,600. Six nights at the Hilton Pyramids, with special "Great Getaway" offer: $990. Exposing a pseudo-scientist in full sight of his fans: PRICELESS. Thank you so much, Irene.

142 comments:

Anonymous said...

I did wonder if Irene deleted her FB post saying what Richard had said to her, or if Hoagie himself had done it and perhaps banned her from the page for being a "time-wasting troll".

For those of us paying attention, it was clear to see that Hoagie didn't want random "university styrangers" prying through his work, and we all know why...

Sad fact is -as great as this was by Irene in showing Hoagie for what he is- the faithful sheep may well forget all about it soon enough (ala Elenin) and put it all down to "troll" or time simply being against Dick.

I'd love to hear him quizzed over it on C2C in front of all his flock, but somehow I think he'll just stick to his story, assuming C2C would let such a call get through.

Definitely still a WIN for those of us "paying attention" and "connecting the dots".

Trekker said...

Brilliant blog as usual, Expat. Well done!

expat said...

I've e-mailed George Noory and Lisa Lyon giving details of this take-down, so they may know about it (although I doubt George even reads any e-mail longer than 2 lines.)

Don't hold your breath waiting for the C2C exposé. Just be thankful that Hoagland wasn't allowed to beg for cash on the air. We can be certain that he asked for just that.

Binaryspellbook said...

I think I want to marry her.

JimO said...

Binary, allow me to brag. I'm married to her clone. If the North Koreans had made ANY trouble about letting me out after I blew the whistle on their 'peaceful satellite' campaign, they would have learned the full force of nature AND the wrath of the true daughter of Olympus. I sure love her.

Binaryspellbook said...

Irene is Scottish. Perhaps a daughter of Wallace. :-)

Misti Parker said...

$80K? I didn't quite catch that, but since Hoagland did disclose that amount to thousands of total strangers, would it be asking too much of Dick to at least see that itemized?

Chris Lopes said...

I too would like to thank Irene for playing this phoney for all he's worth. I'm convinced he'll go to his grave wondering how close he came to some easy money. His ego will haunt him with the idea that he could have (if he applied himself) actually pulled it off. Fun thought that.

As a side issue, I'm not sure how Hoagland would justify deleting her post. It's just her offer with his responses. If he thinks his words were not helpful to his cause, perhaps he might have considered not typing them in the first place.

There appear to be 2 (at least) Hoaglands here. One guy is the brilliant and brave scientist fighting for truth, justice, and the American way. The other is this bitter old dude who can't get a steady gig, so he is forced to hustle nickles and dimes from the gullible. The first Hoagland is the one he plays on C2C. The second Hoagland is a nasty piece of work anyone who has deals with him meets. In other words, the second is the real Hoagland.

Misti Parker said...

When Art Bell was at his peak of popularity, with 20,000,000 listeners, Hoagland would always say something like: "If every member of our audience would just send us one dollar..."

Irene gardner said...

Thanks really should be directed at Expat, who, over the years has done more than any to expose this charlatan.

Just loved the blog entry. Love the style.

Irene

Irene gardner said...

Incidentally, I deleted nothing from Hoagland's facebook. All posts I made have disappeared. So it was either him, his partner Robin or me being daft and not using that preposterous "timeline" gui properly, and consequently being unable to find my old posts

Irene

expat said...

Yep, you've been expunged. Blocked, too, I'd assume.

Anonymous said...

I'd always enjoyed Hoagland on C2C, very amusing. I eagerly picked up the first edition of Dark Moon when I heard how he and Barra didn't agree on everything in the book on Noory's show.

I recently reread Monuments followed by Dark Moon and was franky quite surprised as to the complete lack of substance, especially in the latter book.

Sure, I always knew it was complete bunk but I hadn't realized how DM was basically a rehash of the same weak arguments and petty vendettas discussed in excruciating detail in Monuments.
Some of the more interesting, funny (and no doubt libelous) stuff he mentioned about Apollo and the astronauts on C2C never made it to print.

And now he plans on releasing yet another 'face on Mars' book, which I suspect will just be a rehash of these 2 previous books (if he ever gets down to actually writing it).

Not only is he not a scientist, he's not even a good pseudo-scientist.

Irene gardner said...

For anyone interested....

Dear Richard,

As discussed on your facebook page. I reaffirm my offer to help fund your planned trip to Giza.
Before my partner will allow such a venture, it is required for you to make public your baseline and controls from the previous measurements you made,
in South America, England and at coral castle USA. My partner will then take this information to his university and have it analysed.
If the department is then able verify the veracity of the science. I will be at liberty to release funding.

Kindest regards
Irene Gardner.


Hoagland declines.....I reply

Dear Richard,

Thank you for the reply. I am a little unsure how to respond given that the subtleties and nuances of the English language are on occasion missed in email or text format. That notwithstanding I shall endeavour to address the points you raised concern over.

First let me state that in our relationship there is no such thing as his and her money. We have a joint account and as such any large transactions are of course discussed. My partner's conditions I thought were quite reasonable given the amount of cash involved. I can give you assurances that your data would be given an open and honest review. There would be absolutely no suppression of any interesting anomalies or profound observations.

It's true I did make my partner watch your UN presentation. That was part of our agreement. I also insisted that he watch your awake and aware conference,"The meaning of Elenin." To which I was a subscriber. He had differing opinions of the validity of both. This caused some serious friction in our relationship, and, was resolved partly by my agreeing to certain conditions. Conditions you are unfortunately unable to meet.

Regards Irene Gardner

Anonymous said...

If I remember correctly, I think Bill Ryan had either passed on to or was in contact with 1 or more math professors who had Hoagland's data that he publicly presented about "all of Elenin's artificial encoded mathematical 19.5 patterns" at the A&A conference last year, and they had said Hoagie had made huge errors in data calculation to get to his conclusions. This was nonchalantly dismissed by Hoagie in saying "they simply didn't get it".

expat said...

I despise him most of all for his outrageous accusation that the Apollo 1 astronauts Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee were murdered by senior NASA officials. His only basis for this nauseating claim amounts to astrology -- comet Encke at some bullshit elevation over the Cape at the time of the fire.

When challenged on this he tends to say "Betty Grissom and her son believe it." Betty was involved in a lengthy lawsuit over her husband's death and her comments were driven by that. Scott could hardly contradict his mother.

Hoagland uses this tragedy to promote himself and his crackpot astrological ideas. Disgusting.

Binaryspellbook said...

@Anon,

The Elenin mathematical idiocy was taken apart magnificently on this blog. I also read somewhere that Bill Ryan had the "mathematics" analysed and thoroughly discredited.

What I find equally as "jaw droppingly" repugnant, is, Hoagland's absolute lack of respect for his congregation. I'm sure he must have known that his mathematics were not only wrong, but deliberately contrived.

Of course any mathematician, engineer or physicist on the planet would have spotted the scam. Unfortunately Hoagland is held in such high esteem by the Branch Hoaglandians, no amount of logic, common sense, nor faceslapping would be sufficient to arouse them from their teenage-like, hero worshipping intellectual torpor.

You couldn't even paint a red neck (UK slang for a state of embarrassment) on this man. He had the hubris to stand in front of an audience, many of whom he must have known would know he was wittering total and utter gobshite. (Irish term for BS)

Unbelievable.

Binaryspellbook said...

@Expat,

The shameful Apollo 1 accusations are not limited to Hoagland. I have heard John Lear claim there was a fourth astronaut, from the seekrit space program in a seekrit compartment onboard who also died.

I am constantly underwhelmed by the likes of Hoagland. And sickened by the fact that at one time (long ago) I gave credence to some of his Mars "research." We all have to live with some shame. That is part of mines.

Derek

*ps* Irene says hello. She's my girlfriend.

Anonymous said...

Sadly, so long as Hoagie *sounds* convincing-ish and enough of an authority, and presents stuff that *looks like* it fits together and could be true on face value, there will always be those who accept it straight up as fact in much greater numbers than those who think to question it and put his stuff to the test. You don't become a cult leader if you ask all your disciples to question everything you give them - especially one whose disciples defend him no matter what.

Misti Parker said...

Ahoy, Irene & Derek:

Why not put the purse in an Pay Pal Escrow Account, and issue the offer through George Noory at Coast to Coast AM?

Trekker said...

What would be the point, Misti? Hoagland's unwilling to meet the preconditions. No compliance, no money. It's his loss.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the money should be put towards emperor barry's re-election campaign - after all, it is his destiny to end humanity's dependence on oil and lead us all to a glorious future amongst the stars, using HD technology - then everyone will have all the proof they need of real torsion physics. (Like Dick says, why else would the US give up oil rich islands to Russia if HD technology wasn't about to replace oil).

Or just take the $40k to vegas and put it on 20 on the roulette table (well, 19.5 rounded up).

Misti Parker said...

Hoagland obviously thinks the offer is bogus. Frankly, so do I.

Chris Lopes said...

Misti,
Even if there where no money involved at all, you'd think a guy who claims to be a scientist would jump at the chance to have his work taken seriously by other scientists. Irene was offering Hoagland the chance to silence his critics by having experts evaluate the research once and for all. Those same experts could have also offered advice on how he might best proceed with further research. It was an invaluable opportunity that a real scientist would not have walked away from, which was Irene's point all along I gather.

Misti Parker said...

We have yet to see an offer from any known scientist to peer review Hoagland's work. That's always been his problem. Irene certainly doesn't qualify. Even Hoagland isn't stupid enough too take her at face value.

Chris Lopes said...

Misti,
What did he have to lose in trying? All Irene was asking him for was what any scientist would gladly give to have their work evaluated. If he has the data, there is no reason for him not to share it. He doesn't, so he can't.

Misti Parker said...

Why would Hoagland want to waste his time with other scammers bullshit?

Present him with a bona fide offer from three well qualified, doctoral holding, independent scientists who are willing to set up controlled experiments as outlined above, an then watch (Acutron?) him squirm.

Misti Parker said...

Professors from Cornell, MIT, and Cal-Tech, would do nicely, but even if Michio Kaku would give it a go, that would be great. Again, show me the money. Make the offer through George Noory. Since Irene has so much money to burn, take out an ad on Coast to Coast to issue the challenge. It's not all that expensive, so long as you don't hire Art Bell to do it.

Misti Parker said...

Let Irene hire Michio Kaku to do the experiments and take out an ad on Coast to issue the challenge with the purse in escrow. Even when Hoagland shys away, have Kaku go ahead with the test anyway, just to demonstrate with proper controls. All in all, it won't cost anywhere near $40K, anyway.

Misti Parker said...

Unless of course, Irene is full of shit.

Chris Lopes said...

Seeing how Mr. Science doesn't have anything beyond a high school education, asking for "well qualified" observers is a bit cheeky. Hoagland won't submit his "work" to anyone who actually knows what they are talking about because it's all phoney. He backed off with Irene (though he still tried one last time for some money in his statement to her) because he knew he didn't have the background to fake something convincing enough for real scientists.

In all the time that Hoagland has talked about this stuff, all anyone has actually seen is screen caps of graph in a convincing looking GUI. No real data, just pictures of something he says is data. As I showed in another thread, such things are so easily faked, it's beyond contempt to try and use them as evidence of anything.

No Misti, the data is no more real than the giant glass domes on the Moon, or the Face on Mars. If it were, Hoagland would have found a place to publish it before now. Hell, even George Haas found someone to publish his Martian Parrot Paper.

Misti Parker said...

You sure do talk a lot Lopes, but I never see you do any experiments to prove any of the crap you constantly excrete.

Chris Lopes said...

Misti,
Since Hoagland is the one claiming to have discovered a new branch of physics, it's Hoagland who has the burden of proof here. I don't have to prove he's wrong, he has to prove he's right. Screen shots of graphs aren't proof of anything.

Anonymous said...

Well, if this isn't PROOF of hyper-dimensional torsion physics, I don't know what is...

http://i49.tinypic.com/zt6hok.png

Not just one person got a headache - but TEN, over a week - a whole seven days before Venus transits across the sun.

Irrefutable!

(I don't know about you, but I know I only get headaches when planetary bodies get into alignments or cross the path of the sun).

Binaryspellbook said...

Misti,

To catch a snake lubed up in it's own lies and deceit it is necessary to employ duplicitous tactics.

That said. Had Hoagland presented his "data" the capability was there to have it analysed at Glasgow as stated.

Misti Parker said...

Irene is so obviously full of hooey that even Hoagland can recognize that fact, and the spin here on his not taking her bait only discredits the detractors.

This forum is neither a peer review nor a court of law, Common or Civil.

Go the extra mile, prove him wrong, and shut him down, once and for all.

Now then, for the experiment to be valid, do we need to go out and by Kaku an Accutron, or will Seiko suffice?

expat said...

Sorry Misti, you haven't a hope in hell of organizing us.

Misti Parker said...

S'like trying to herd cats.

Misti Parker said...

Recent Posts By Others

Teddy Kidd

Dear Professor Hoagland,

Is there anyway I can buy one of those special Accutrons, engraved with your autograph, Sir, so that I can do the torsion experiment along with you? Could you please include an instruction book so that I won't flub it up? Thanks, this is fun!

Like · · 5 minutes ago

Chris Lopes said...

Misti,
What part of "the burden of proof is Hoagland's, not ours" don't you understand? Hoagland is making a claim, the evidence for which he will not let anyone actually examine. That renders his claim unfalsifiable, which means it's not science. Call us when Hoagland decides to play by the rules of real science.

FlightSuit said...

Wow, Expat, I was felt surprised and honored to see my name mentioned in this most delicious blog post of yours!

Thank you so much!

Esteban Navarro said...

Brave Irene!

My clumsy attempts to highlight Hoagies pale before your master stroke! Why someone does not show evidence of what he says?
1.There´s no evidence.
2. There are, but they´ re all fraud.

No further explanation , however much endeavor Misti.There isn´t exist another possibility, if otherwise meant winning scientific prestige and $40grand eventually ...


Brave Irene. Bravíssima!

Misti Parker said...

Irene hasn't proven her claims either, Topher, you dipshit. Show me the money.

Misti Parker said...

You supposedly make a lot of money, Lopes, why don't you hire Kaku to do the experiment, and advertise the challenge and results on Coast? Then everybody would know what you know about Hoagland.

Chris Lopes said...

Again you miss the point. Hoagland is making the claim (and trying to con nice but gullible people out of their money with the claim), not I, and certainly not Irene. Irene's only claim is that she made an offer to Hoagland that he turned down. That would seem to be the case.

Now we are all welcome to speculate as to why he turned down the offer. You seem to believe that Hoagie leads such a busy life that emailing the results of his experiments would just take too darn long. I suggest he turned her down because there is no actual data and he isn't able to create any that would fool real scientists.

I base my theory on Hoagland's past behavior. For instance, during the Elenin thing, Hoagland expressed no interest what so ever in engaging real scientists who had a FB page dedicated to the comet. This was a page run by people with access to real telescopes and real data, Dr. Elenin himself among them. Yet Hoagland couldn't seem to pull himself away from Photoshop long enough to talk to such people. Oh some of his fans went there, but that's only because they (unlike Hoagland) believed Hoagland's theories were actual science.

Misti, if you wish to believe that Hoagland has actually solved the mysteries of the universe, you are welcome to do so. The rest of us are just as free to judge him by the standards he claims to be adhering to. If you want to be a scientist, you have to follow the rules. Hoagland gave up wanting that years ago, which is why he only pretends to be a scientist.

Esteban Navarro said...

Oh , Chris, look at that

http://28.media.tumblr.com/KAf5gfkDWnelgawbj2KyuiKTo1_500.jpg


Religious and rude, I would add.


There is another possibility : He does not send the results of his experiments because he suspects that Irene will not pay in the end, although his whole theory would be tested and approved. But she could steal! Always been the modus operandi of the great geniuses of wonderful discoveries to mankind: Pasteur, Einstein, etc ... They refused to show anyone their experiments, until they saw the money first.It´s what happens in all jobs, get paid first and then we'll see if you show your skills or not.

Brother William of Ockham must be laughing with his razor, somewhere ....Over the Raimbow, in the land of lollipops….

Binaryspellbook said...

Hoagland is not a scientist. He never has been nor will ever be a scientist. He is an acomplished public speaker and entertainer. Nothing more. A real scientist would readily make his data available. Lets face it. Hes had 40+ years to do science and has conducted presisely zero genuine experiments. He cannot even cope with a simple multi stage rocket equation without fucking it up. How therefore are we to believe he understands tensors or quaternions. He is nothing more than a peddler of junk science.

Chris Lopes said...

Esteban,
That was good. I'm a House fan too.

Binaryspellbook,
No he isn't or ever was, but he can play one on the radio and the Internet. It's his ability to mimic the style (if not the substance) of science that has enabled him to make a living all these years. He has the patter down pretty well, but he's still just dealing with illusions.

And yes, he's in no position to be talking about non-Newtonian physics, since Newton's 3 laws (as they apply to rockets and space flight) are apparently beyond his comprehension. That won't stop him from trying of course, particularly if there may be some money to be made from it. And there will always (unfortunately) be people gullible enough (and in need of easy answers) to believe his nonsense. Sad really.

Trekker said...

I wonder what's keeping him from writing up a paper on his annular eclipse results. I thought the fans were going to get more than the 'preliminary' bulletin from May 22. There hasn't been any further contribution to his page since then.

Though, then again, given his past history of not writing up his promised 'papers', I suppose they shouldn't be expecting too much.

expat said...

Chris: He behaved even worse than that over Elenin. If you remember, he even expressed doubt that Leonid Elenin was a real person. He said on C2C words to the effect of "If he's real, how come we don't see interviews with him all over the place? Why isn't he on Fox News or the Today Show?"

You and I know that the answer is "Perhaps, Richard, there are people who aren't as addicted to self-promotion as you are."

Anonymous said...

While I agree with Misti that Irene's offer of $40k may have been a little disingenuous, I get the impression Hoagland was wary of having to show any proof of his work to Ilene rather than any reservations about accepting such a large sum of cash from a stranger.

His passive-aggressive reply to her about her partner's doubts speaks volumes about HIS integrity.

Reminds me of the documentary Marjoe where he (and several other 'genuine' preachers) would ask their congregations for the biggest bill in their wallets, or even more shamelessly, the money they had been saving with their meager incomes to buy themselves something nice.

Hoagland can never present his findings in front of any scientific panel because there is nothing to show- even if he had baseline readings. They would be rejected because they don't prove (or disprove) anything. There are too many unknowns. Even if he is right, what is there for anyone else to test independently.

And lets not forget, Hoagland himself is not exactly reluctant to call out real scientists when he doesn't like their findings- nor does he have a problem demanding new images be taken from Mars probes. Expensive missions with teams that have devoted years to the project to attempt real science (and have had to go through proper approval processes).

And come to think of it, when have you ever seen any scientists on Fox (or any) news channel never mind the lightweight Today Show.

Chris Lopes said...

Expat,
I remember that quite well. That's another reason he could have (if he really believed his own BS) gone on that FB page. He could have confronted Elenin on the issue. Unfortunately he chose not to, instead letting his fans fight his battles for him. It's cowardliness born of the fact that he knows it's all BS.

Trekker,
He hasn't done anything else because he's milked this particular nonsense for as much as he can. He knows he isn't going to get any more money out of the deal, and Noory certainly doesn't seem too interested in his "readings" (at the moment anyway), so he might as well let the issue rest for the moment. The original "new" papers were just a sales pitch which has now gone flat. No free trip to Egypt, no week long C2C build up to the event, so no new paper.

Anon,
There are real scientists who are just as good at self-promotion as Hoagland. Micho Kaku for instance, can be seen just about everywhere when he's promoting a new book. Elenin though (as Expat pointed out) is not that sort. He was too satisfied with the attention he got from his fellow scientists to care about talking to Matt Lauer.

Misti Parker said...

You can believe Irene if you want to Lopes, but she hasn't proven any more reliable than has Hoagland or you.

What's the readership of this blog, and what's the visitorship of Hoagland's facebutt page?

Even what's left of the listenership of Coast to Coast AM after having been decimated by Mike Siegel and George Noory is still about five million.

Apparently, Lopes, you like pissing in the wind.

Misti Parker said...

As long as Hoagland commands the Coast audience, it's like his antics get the headlines and his detractors online get the small print in the classifieds section. Pull the rug out from under him. George Noory will kiss the ass full on the mouth of any sponsor who pays for an ad.

expat said...

>>What's the readership of this blog, and what's the visitorship of Hoagland's facebutt page?<<

Answer: About 200, and 32,464 respectively.

What a provocateur (or should that be provocateuse?) you are to be sure. I repeat -- you have no chance whatsoever of getting this little group to do what you want.

Misti Parker said...

Teddy Kidd posted
to Richard C. Hoagland
2 seconds ago

I want to do the Venus transit torsion experiment along with Professor Hoagland, but I can't afford an $80,000.00 Accutron. Would a Timex work okay, or would it invalidate the experiment?

...and oh yeah, how do I do the experiment, again?

Like ·

Misti Parker said...

Derrick Regnier
Mr. H. Did you ever impress the husband to secure the funding for your trip?

Like · · Friday at 7:06pm near Los Angeles, CA

Teddy Kidd The offer was obviously bogus. Show me the money! Put it in escrow.
5 minutes ago · Like

Teddy Kidd By the way, does anybody know where I can buy one of those $80,000.00 Accutrons?

about a minute ago · Like

FlightSuit said...

I don't understand why Misti is attacking people on here. This confuses me.

Anonymous said...

Misti, exactly what are you trying to say? It is almost as if you are shilling for hoaxland and Hoax to Hoax AM. Do you have a point? Why not get to it, please...

Chris Lopes said...

I don't know what Misti's problem is, and I really don't care. Irene called Hoagland's bluff. If he wasn't really bluffing (as in, he really has all this data that proves him correct), he could have called her bluff and sent the data anyway. It would cost him nothing but the few minutes it takes to send an email.

When it gets down to it, the data either really exists or it doesn't. If it exists, there is no scientifically valid reason not to release it. If it doesn't exist, there is no way it can ever be released. Since he's been doing this research for a number of years without any release of data, I'm betting it doesn't exist. Others are welcome to speculate differently if they choose, but the rest of us are under no obligation to follow the little blonde girl with the big white rabbit.

strahlungsamt said...

Forget Irene. $40,000??? What a cheapskate.

Hoagie should go to James Randi instead and earn himself a clean $$$$$ ONE MILLION DOLLARS $$$$$$

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html
(One caviat: he must be able to prove that his theory actually WORKS).

Hoagie? Hoagie? What are you waiting for???

Chris Lopes said...

strahlungsamt,

Forget Randi too, as a $1,000,000 is chicken feed compared to the billions that could be made if Hoagland is right. After all, Hoagland isn't just promising to have redefined physics as we know it, he's promising the basis of a whole new technology that will give us "Star Trek in our lifetimes".

On a C2C show (that included Joseph Farrell) a few years ago, Hoagland was talking about Part 3 of his infamous Von Braun's Secret paper. He claimed that this part would include instructions by which anyone could (with materials you can get from Home Depot) put together an HD device in their garage and be able to generate enough power to run their house with it. It was a bold promise that would have silenced his critics and had venture capitalists lining up to fund his research. Unfortunately, it's a promise Hoagland never got around to fulfilling.

So instead of winning a Nobel Prize and becoming a multi-billionare, Hoagland is reduced to begging for cash so he can play with his laptop and watch in exotic Florida (for a second time!). Think of it, all the wealth and fame Hoagland could possibly want was just a paper away, and yet he just can't find the time to write it. It's almost as if the guy is just talking out of his anal orifice.

FlightSuit said...

The Amazing Randi's challenge is only for people who can demonstrate paranormal powers, right? So it would have nothing to do with proving a new scientific theory. If the JREF had to give away a million dollars every time a new scientific theory was proved, they'd have been bankrupted a long time ago.

And Hoagland does maintain that all of this is science, and not magic, right?

Misti Parker said...

Teddy Kiddposted to
Richard C. Hoagland
2 seconds ago.

Dear Professor Hoagland,

I'd like to follow along with you duplicating the Venus transit torsion experiment, but I can't afford the $80,000.00 for the Accutron, room service, and air fare to visit the Sphinx. Could this test be done fairly at the Saint Louis Arch with a Timex? I don't mind eating at McDonalds; hey, how about the golden arches instead?

Misti Parker said...

Lopes isn't people, he's a ghost, but if her were people, he'd be a twit.

Misti Parker said...

I think my point is really quite clear, FrightSoot, Hoagland and Irene are both ingenuos, and Lopes likes to constantly complain without taking any effective action.

Misti Parker said...

The spellcheck is broken at this station.

expat said...

Misti: I'm quite partial to controversy, it's good for the soul. But your provocations are getting a bit tedious. Please stop it.

FlightSuit said...

Misti, I am sincerely trying to understand where you're coming from. It appears you understand Hoagland is a fraud, so what's your beef with Irene, who just masterfully pwned him? Shouldn't that endear her to you?

Misti Parker said...

Irene obviously didn't fool Hoagland. If you want to be effective, you have to fight him in the big arena; Coast to Coast AM. Otherwise, you're all nothing but a bunch of sniveling, little crybabies.

Misti Parker said...

Correction:

Hoagland and Irene are both disingenuous.

(Can't just blame spellcheck for this one.)

Misti Parker said...

Irene, why not post a comment on a thread over at Coast to Coast AM's facebutt page, of your offer to Hoagland? In fact, why not email George Noory and Coast producers and make the offer to Hoagland through them?

http://www.facebook.com/coasttocoastam

george@coasttocoastam.com

CoastProducer@aol.com

http://www.coasttocoastam.com

FlightSuit said...

C2C AM is completely controlled by woo merchants. I seriously doubt the administrators of its Web page would allow an honest discussion of Hoagland's failings to remain publicly viewable for very long.

Regardless, I don't understand your animosity toward Irene. If you want to encourage her to take some step she's not yet taken, that's fine, but why the anger?

Misti Parker said...

Richard C. Hoagland
April 25

Everyone,

I've had a lot of private messages and e-mails over the last couple days, all asking--

"What do you REALLY want for your birthday?"

It's simple:

I want to be able to go to Egypt, the first week in June, to measure first hand the extraordinary Hyperdimensional/Torsion Field Physics of the Pyramids ... during the LAST Transit of Venus across the Sun, on June 6, 2012--



Teddy Kidd
Don't you mean Wednesday, June 6th, 2012?
2 seconds ago · Like

Misti Parker said...

If I were angry, FrightSoot, I wouldn't be merely so assertive, you dimwit. If you don't like name calling, just look at the title of this blog.

Misti Parker said...

If Irene is sincere about her offer, forty grand is enough for Coast Producers to take the time to properly vet her.

Besides, posting on Coast's fb page is no more futile than posting on Hoagland's. How much more work can it be for such a prolific bunch of Spammers such as here?

Misti Parker said...

Coast to Coast AM shared a link.
May 31

Our new weekly schedule has just been posted! Which guests are you most intrigued by?

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/upcoming


Teddy Kidd
Dr Richard C Hoagueland is planning to visit the Sphinx on June 6th, to perform an amazing Hyper Dimensional Accutron torsion experiment during the Venus transit. How about live coverage of the event on Coast?

2 seconds ago · Like

Misti Parker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Misti Parker said...

Teddy Kiddposted to
Richard C. Hoagland
2 seconds ago

According to the University of Hawaii, the Venus transit takes place on Tuesday, June 5, 2012. If Professor Hoagland goes to Egypt on the 6th, will that be on the other side of the date line?

Like ·

Misti Parker said...

http://www.facebook.com/coasttocoastam


Teddy Kidd
Dr Richard C Hoagueland is planning to visit the Sphinx on June 6th, to perform an amazing Hyper Dimensional Accutron torsion experiment during the Venus transit. How about live coverage of the event on Coast?

about an hour ago · Like


Teddy Kidd
Actually, the Venus transit is to take place on Tuesday, June 5th, 2012. Somebody really ought to let Dick know.

33 minutes ago · Like

Neville Parchemin
Forget it, Teddy. He never made it to Egypt (in spite of being offered $40,000 to finance the jaunt.) He's going to do what he calls an "experiment" (which is actually just an amusement with no scientific validity at all) from the restaurant on Sandia Peak in his home state of NM.

Why did he turn down the $40K, you ask? Because the condition was that he allow qualified scientists to review ALL his data from previous Accutron experiments, including baselines and controls. The problem with that is that, since he's just an entertainer and not really a scientist, HE DOESN'T HAVE any baselines and controls. LOL.

14 minutes ago · Like

Teddy Kidd
Well, if Professor Hoagland turned down that much money, it must have been because he didn't need it. Why would anybody offer him that much anyway? Why would it take forty grand just to measure a wrist watch? As far as controls are concerned, what about all those witnesses at the restaurant? I guess the restaurant must be shaped just like the Sphinx then? Isn't that why he was originally planning to go to Egypt, for the Hyper Dimensional boost from the Sphinx?

4 minutes ago · Like

jourget said...

Misti,

In my view there are a couple of possible outcomes to your proposal. Coast to Coast has about as biased an audience as you're ever likely to find. Based on the calls they take, it's make up almost exclusively of the spaced folks who believe in a wide variety of nonsense (orbs, for instance) without a lick of legitimate evidence, and those who listen for amusement or entertainment. That being said, I think the most likely outcome to Noory publicly offering Irene's challenge on the air is Hoagland reiterating his Facebook response, i.e. "She can't expect a Scientist to release proprietary data before its time". A further comment along the lines of Irene being an imposter sent by Them to discredit his research is optional.

However, even if the whole thing went through as you suggest, it wouldn't result in the cataclysmic destruction of Hoaglandia. Remember that when Ed Mitchell, a guy who's seen what's on the moon with his own eyes, called Rich out as being full of shit, we got treated to the fascinating new chapter of lunacy that is the astronaut memory-editing saga. Suppose for a moment that the data is presented, it goes to Glasgow, and it is deemed (as it surely would be) utter crap. As many others have pointed out here, Hoagland's readership wouldn't change much, he'd still be a fixture on Coast, and he'd be able to dismiss it as another failed blow by the Nazis or Masons or Magicians or Emperor Palpatine. He's both mentally incapable of admitting he's scientifically bankrupt and the purveyor of theories so feverishly complex that there's always an out. Berating Chris for not undertaking such a fool's errand indicates that you think that it is actually possible to destroy Hoagland's reputation among the Faithful; neither he nor they are intellectually rigorous enough for such a demonstration to have any effect.

Misti Parker said...

Jack Puttnam
It was Hoagland who originally was soliciting $80,000.00 for this experiment, however he wouldn't itemize. As it turns out, he seems to be able to perform the same experiment in his own home town, for the price of a dinner.

4 minutes ago · Like

Teddy Kidd
If Dr Howeglund needed eighty grand, what good was forty supposed to do? Probably Accutron is made by Rolex, and he decided that a Seiko would be good enough.

2 seconds ago · Like

Misti Parker said...

I like what you say there, Juggernuts, but Lopes in still nothing but a cheapass kibitzer.

Misti Parker said...

Hey Irene, how about treating us all to turkey on Wednesday night, in Albuquerque? You think the place will be packed by this star studded celebrity event, or can we all get in without a reservation?

Misti Parker said...

High Finance all right!

Misti Parker said...

Teddy Kiddposted to
Sandia Peak Restaurant

2 seconds ago

I understand that Dr Richard C Howeglands will be conducting a revolutionary Hyper Dimensional scientific experiment there, on Wednesday night, June 6th, 2012, of the torsion effects of the Venus transit on an $80,000.00 Accutron. Will the place be packed for this star studded, celebrity event, or will our group be needing to make reservations?

Like ·


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sandia-Peak-Restaurant/185637004141

Misti Parker said...

What was that about Ed Mitchell?

Biological_Unit said...

It seems like such a bullshit experiment. There are two tuning forks in the Accutron. What is being measured?
Come on Hoagies - he's given up. Just admit it, it's over.

Misti Parker said...

Like Button Button,
Bioillogical Eunuch?

Misti Parker said...

Richard C. Hoagland and Dr. Edgar Mitchell Debate

Art Bell Show
Wednesday, May 15, 1996 1 AM to 4 AM PDT

Transcribed by G. Varano, Part 1 of 6

Biological_Unit said...

"Accutron" will always be a bullshit experiment that I dismissed in about 30 seconds.

We need a caring, christian lady's input here ...

So why are you here, fat cynical troll-man?

Misti Parker said...

Matthew 10:34 (King James Version)

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

(King James Version)



Mark 16:17-18

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe ; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

(King James Version)

Biological_Unit said...

For the demon shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed! Not two or five or seven, but nine, which he will wield on all wretched sinners, sinners just like you, sir, there, and the horns shall be on the head, with which he will...

Obadiah, his servants. There shall, in that time, be rumours of things going astray, erm, and there shall be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will really know where lieth those little things wi-- with the sort of raffia work base that has an attachment. At this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer and the young shall not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their fathers put there only just the night before, about eight o'clock. Yea, it is written in the book of Cyril that, in that time, shall the third one...

Biological_Unit said...

You Christians just got lucky when Vesuvius erupted and killed all those decadent, elite Pompeians.
This kick-started that whole sex-guilt crap religion.

Biological_Unit said...

Coordinator: Crucifixion?
Prisoner: Yes.
Coordinator: Good. Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.
[Next prisoner]
Coordinator: Crucifixion?
Mr. Cheeky: Er, no, freedom actually.
Coordinator: What?
Mr. Cheeky: Yeah, they said I hadn't done anything and I could go and live on an island somewhere.
Coordinator: Oh I say, that's very nice. Well, off you go then.
Mr. Cheeky: No, I'm just pulling your leg, it's crucifixion really.
Coordinator: [laughing] Oh yes, very good. Well...
Mr. Cheeky: Yes I know, out of the door, one cross each, line on the left.

Biological_Unit said...

Button, Button made no sense and is the type of thing M. Night Shymalam or David Cronenburg would make into a dull movie.
A really dumb idea would be to take it seriously as something substantial enough to make trollable.

Esteban Navarro said...

Totally agree with you, Jourget. It is impossible to destroy a cult, no matter how pathetic and miserable it may become, as it moves in different coordinates. In fact, I don´t denounce Hoagland nor the entertainment that he provides or as his strictly enforced by the discursive elements of charismatic, hermetic and messianic religions (could say I'm even a fan), but because his locate his dialectic enemy between honest people who devote their lives to research and science.
A cult, by definition, can be neither truth nor lie, is something else, is a closed discourse itself. Impregnable. But if it´s so laughable that popularized the use of scientific knowledge and mixing with all types of loans from other discourses, old and "new". The only thing I disagree with Phil Plait is that this discourse can become "dangerous." Moreover, it seems that´s even our requirement , in fact, without whom this blog probably would not exist. And I love this blog.

It's nothing, Mystique, is just a game, my shapeshifter favourite X-woman [Come on, give me a pseudonym, an insulting nickname, a little bit rude, a little bit ingenious , I think I've earned it, pleeeease ....;)]

FlightSuit said...

Esteban, I'm not sure I'm following you, but if you're saying Phil Plait thinks Hoagland's dangerous, and you disagree with that assertion, I'm going to have to disagree with you.

Why? Because once somebody's firmly in the camp of pseudoscience, they tend to believe in things like, "global warming is a hoax," and they vote accordingly. That makes them dangerous to all of us, and to our planet.

Heck, if you listen to Hoagland enough, you'll find that he is himself a global warming denier of a kind: He will tell you with great enthusiasm that the entire solar system is heating up, due of course, to hyperdimensional physics.

So in his model of reality, since global warming is not man-made, and since we obviously can't do anything about it, the logical direction he's taking you is that we *don't* need to do anything about it.

That's just one small example of how Hoagland is dangerous.

Let's not even get into the types of violent actions people steeped in anti-government conspiracy theories so often take. I'm not saying Hoagland himself would advocate anti-government voilence, but I could sure imagine there being some cross-polination between his fan base and the survivalist/posse comitatus/militia/Tea Party wackos.

Misti Parker said...

There is no "Global Warming". The oceans are heating up, due to millions, (yes, millions) of undersea volcanoes now erupting, as they usually do, when planet Earth nears the apex of it's cycle of precession. Of course, most population centers are located along coast lines, so it seems as if the entire planet is heating up, but meanwhile, glaciers are growing, Moscow and London experience record cold temperatures. This is due to evaporation of the seas, which falls as increased precipitation, which tends to lower temperature more inland.

FlightSuit said...

Really? It's all undersea volcanoes? And carbon emissions and greenhouse gases have nothing to do with it?

Are you actually saying that, Misti, or was your previous post copied and pasted from one of Hoagland's inane diatribes in order to make a point?

Misti Parker said...

Gary Hunter
Richard, are you going to be conducting experiments on the Venus transit?

Like · · 28 minutes ago


Brian O'Docharty
He is in Egypt now preparing to do just that.

12 minutes ago · Like

Teddy Kidd
Yeah, the Professor is going to be conducting the experiment at High Finance, the restaurant high atop Sandia Peak in Albuquerque. At first he said he needed $80,000.00 to do the test at the Sphinx in Egypt, but after he got all of his birthday money, he decided that he could accomplish his research at home for the mere price of a meal.

High Finance ; appropriate name.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Sandia-Peak-Restaurant/185637004141

Sandia Peak Restaurant
Restaurant/Cafe


6 minutes ago · Like
·
Teddy Kidd
I wonder what Hyper Dimensional effect the Venus transit might have on a Chipotle turkey burger?

2 minutes ago · Like

Misti Parker said...

This is what just one volcano has recently done.


http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/Volcano/

"When Mount Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines June 15, 1991, an estimated 20 ... reaching the Earth's surface, lowering temperatures in the troposphere, and changing ... outpouring of gases and ash can influence climate patterns for years."

Misti Parker said...

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/hazards/gas/climate.php

"The climactic eruption of Mount Pinatubo on June 15, 1991, was one of the largest eruptions of the twentieth century and injected a 20-million ton (metric scale) sulfur dioxide cloud into the stratosphere at an altitude of more than 20 miles. The Pinatubo cloud was the largest sulfur dioxide cloud ever observed in the stratosphere since the beginning of such observations by satellites in 1978. It caused what is believed to be the largest aerosol disturbance of the stratosphere in the twentieth century, though probably smaller than the disturbances from eruptions of Krakatau in 1883 and Tambora in 1815. Consequently, it was a standout in its climate impact and cooled the Earth's surface for three years following the eruption, by as much as 1.3 degrees at the height of the impact."

FlightSuit said...

So, Misti, after all this energy you've put into hating on the pseudoscientist Hoagland, you yourself are buying into the pseudoscience of climate change denial?

Misti Parker said...

http://iceagenow.com/Underwater_volcanoes_heating_Antarctic_waters.htm

"Global Warming" is a religious belief system, based upon propaganda rather than sound scientific proof.

FlightSuit said...

Which is why the only scientists who disagree with the idea of global warming are the ones whose studies are paid for by industries that pollute.

Chris Lopes said...

FlightSuit,
I agree that Hoagland promoting ignorance is not the least bit helpful. He's feeding the kind of irrationality that can push certain sorts people to do very foolish things. And he definitely has most of the personality traits of a cult leader.

The plea for money was a step in that direction, having the flavor of some evangelical asking for donations so he can go to Israel and talk to God. Had it worked out better than it did, I'm sure it would have become a (if not the) major component of his shtick. He wants to live the life of a cult leader, he's too lazy to pull it off yet. I think he's using the FB page to create a 'virtual' cult of sorts, one where he gets the money but doesn't have to deal with the followers as much. Just as well that he can't manage the real thing, as the last 'comet as spaceship' cult didn't turn out so well.

Misti Parker said...

With the US Clean Air Act, pollution got exported to China, along with American jobs, where their industries are not ecologically regulated. Now, big clouds of pollution from China make their way to America every day.

Nevertheless, industrial contribution of CO2 in negligible compared to volcanoes. There is lots worse pollution that that.

Fukushima, for instance. Soil samples as far away from there as Tokyo, tests at such a high level of radioactive contamination from the nuclear catastrophe, to be rated by US standards as radioactive waste.

So called, "Global Warming" is a Communist redistribution of wealth scheme to tax Americans.

I don't even own a car, so don't give me any shit.

Chris Lopes said...

First, 20 years is only 'recent' in the geological sense of the word. Second, while I am skeptical of the political solutions being promoted (carbon trading sounds a lot like dealing in pixie dust), I'm pretty sure the Earth is getting warmer. The real questions are, how fast is the over all temperature really rising and what can realistically be done about it?

Misti Parker said...

Ahoy, Jourget,

please elaborate if you would be so kind. This is interesting.


jourget said...

"Remember that when Ed Mitchell, a guy who's seen what's on the moon with his own eyes, called Rich out as being full of shit, we got treated to the fascinating new chapter of lunacy that is the astronaut memory-editing saga."

Misti Parker said...

Lopes, you being pretty sure means absolutely nothing. Temperatures are dropping in most places on the planet. It's just that most cities are located along the coastlines and the evaporating oceans are warming the air. It is true that the oceans have become over loaded with CO2 from the undersea volcanoes, and so the CO2 has no other place to go but up into the atmosphere, but as the Earth is now nearing the apex of the cyclical path of Precession, the planet is at it's farthest distance away from the Sun in 26,000 years. Even the slight so-called "wobble" effect is enough to create the seasons on Earth. If it weren't for the extra insulation from CO2 in the atmosphere, we might well be experiencing an ice age now.

Chris Lopes said...

Misti,
He's referring to an incident on C2C a while back, where Mitchell refuted Hoagland's 'glass domes on the Moon' idea. Hoagland then went on to claim that Mitchell and his fellow Moon-walkers don't remember the domes because NASA had their memories selectively altered.

expat said...

Yes, that's correct. It was a hopeless sham of an idea, picking up on a genuine comment that Mitchell made to the effect that he had a hard time recapturing what it _felt_like_ to be on the Moon. Neither Mitchell nor any other Moon-walker has said at any time that he could not remember clearly what he _saw_ on the Moon, a very different matter.

FlightSuit said...

Global warming = communist plot? Really!?

Oh geeze, Misti, that is EXACTLY what the guests and hosts on Coast-to-Coast AM believe.

You are in good company.

Misti Parker said...

Which countries are exempt under proposed Cap and Trade? The Communist ones are, because Communism has failed to sustain Marxist economies and they need an advantage to overcome "disparity". China contributes more CO2 and pollutes more than any other country, yet they get a free pass to burn as much coal as they choose.

Misti Parker said...

Okay, now I recall Hoagland saying about the astronauts being brain zapped. Interesting, that in Hoagland's debate with Mitchell on Art Bell's show, Hoagland made a reasonable sounding explanation for Mitchell not seeing the domes; that they were too big, too far away, and too full of holes. Of course then he strongly implied that Mitchell was under an oath of secrecy due to NASA's relationship to the DOD. First Hoagland says Mitchell couldn't have known, then he implies that Mitchell was refusing to say. I guess Hoagland finally accepted that Mitchell wasn't deliberately withholding information, after all.

Chris Lopes said...

Misti,
You just showed how Hoagland follows his own creed: 'The lie is different at every level.' :)

Misti Parker said...


Putin adviser says Kyoto 'smoke screen'
Treaty will create Soviet-style 'monster' threatening freedom

Published: 11/20/2004 at 1:00 AM

An adviser to Russian President Vladimir Putin warns the Kyoto protocol ratified by his country is a propaganda “smoke screen” that will create a “supranational bureaucratic monster” threatening human freedom, similar to the Soviet Union’s.

For most of the world, writes Andrei Illarionov in the Financial Times, the protocol, set to become an international treaty next year, is “bad news.”

“Like fascism and communism, Kyotoism is an attack on basic human freedoms behind a smokescreen of propaganda,” he said. “Like those ideologies of human hatred, it will be exposed and defeated.”

Illarionov — whose views, the British paper noted, did not necessarily reflect those of the Russian authorities — asserted the Kyoto protocol is destructive for science and the environment, public health and safety, economic growth and the international fight against hunger and poverty.

The protocol, the presidential adviser contended, is scientifically unsubstantiated.

“Climate change is an inalienable feature of Earth,” he argued in his Financial Times piece. “But it is not proved that concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere causes changes in global temperature.Variations in energy flow from the sun determine our climate much more than anything else, including emissions of greenhouse gases. Historically, global temperature has fluctuated more than the increase of 0.6? Celsius over the past 100 years cited by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.”

He pointed out that in the past, the Earth’s climate was warmer, the global temperature rose faster, sea level was higher, floods were more severe, droughts lasted longer and hurricanes were more devastating than in the 20th century.

“Climate change is real, but it is caused by forces of nature, not of humankind,” he asserted.

Illarionov contended “propaganda” wrongly equates greenhouse gases with air pollutants.

“Yet none of the six gases referred to in the Kyoto protocol is considered toxic,” he said. “The protocol tackles none of the real air pollutants. What is more, modern environmental cleaning processes are based on chemical reactions that create additional carbon dioxide as a by-product. Limiting such emissions means limiting implementation of the most efficient technologies.”

He also contended Kyoto is “devastating” to economic growth, because limiting emissions means limiting energy consumption, economic activity and technological progress.

Kyoto’s followers already are paying a heavy price, he says, noting that since 1997, slower emissions growth in 17 pro-Kyoto, high-income countries coincided with slower growth in gross domestic product in comparison to non-Kyoto nations such as the U.S., Australia and South Korea.

Illarionov warned enforcement of Kyoto would remind Russians of the days of the communist Soviet Union.

“The Kyoto protocol requires a supranational bureaucratic monster in charge of rationing emissions and, therefore, economic activities,” he said in the Financial Times piece. “The Kyotoist system of quota allocation, mandatory restrictions and harsh penalties will be a sort of international Gosplan, a system to rival the former Soviet Union’s.”

The Russian adviser insisted the majority of humankind does not accept this system, despite claims of worldwide support.

Even with Russia’s ratification, he pointed out, 75 percent of the world’s CO2 is emitted by the 89 percent of the world’s population living in countries not “handcuffed” by Kyoto’s restrictions.

Chris Lopes said...

China and India are exempt from Kyoto because they valued economic growth too much to sign on to the treaty otherwise. Their concern was economic, not ideological.

Misti Parker said...

http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/why_glaciations1.html


What controls the advance and retreat of these large glaciers during the four long, cool periods?

Scientists understand more about why glaciers advance during cool periods than they do about why large scale cool periods occur, because they have gathered large quantities of data about the current cool period.

Variation in the Earth's orbit through time causes changes in the amount and distribution of sunlight (and other solar radiation) reaching the Earth's surface. These changes are thought to affect the development of ice sheets.

[continuing]

Misti Parker said...

Testing the Waters A Report on Sea Levels

by
John L. Daly
Greening Earth Society Science Advisor

"Climate modelers and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) predict that one of the consequences of global warming will be rising sea levels due to thermal expansion of the ocean water mass and the melting of non-polar glaciers [21] [23]. They claim the oceans already have risen 18 cm (7 inches) during the 20th century, an annual rate of 1.8 mm per year. They further predict that the oceans will rise approximately a further 50 cm (19½ inches) during the 21st century [45], an accelerated annual rate of 5 mm per year [25]."

Since the benchmark has been observed to be the same height above relative MSL using three sets of good observations 112 years apart, sea level clearly has not changed at Port Arthur in all that time. Being tectonically stable and subject only to minor PGR, land uplift hardly provides an adequate explanation for the lack of sea level rise since 1888 and the possibility of a sea level drop between 1841 and 1888.

"The benchmark powerfully confirms what the Australian Mean Sea Level Survey [29] tells us, namely, the rate of sea level rise over much of the 20th Century only has been 0.16 mm/yr, less than one tenth of the IPCC's estimate of 1.8 mm/yr. This survey implies a sea level rise of only 1.6 cm for the entire century, consistent with observations and measurements of the Ross-Lempriere benchmark since Capt. Shortt first observed it in 1888."

FlightSuit said...

So, Misti, where are you going with all this? Are you suggesting that we just just keep on polluting and consuming at current levels, since we have nothing to worry about and climate change is a communist plot?

Chris Lopes said...

FlightSuit,
Perhaps Misti is suggesting that some of the biggest producers of CO2 don't seem to be concerned enough about it to curtail their use of carbon based fuels and without their cooperation, efforts to limit CO2 output are bond to fail. What we need is a way to both limit CO2 production and sustain economic viability. The Kyoto Treaty seems to sacrifice the latter for the former, which is why it mostly failed.

FlightSuit said...

Chris, the conservative party line seems to be that if China's not doing the right thing, we shouldn't either. That line of thought is psychotic. That's like being in a boat that's rapidly taking on water and refusing to get a bucket and scoop the water out because other occupants of the boat aren't doing their part. You would be drowning on principle.

Similarly, the climate change deniers want to see us destroy our planet just on principle.

Misti Parker said...

Right on Topher. See, you don't have to be wrong all the time, after all.

America has already commuted economic suicide for the supposed sake of environment as well as transnational corporate profits. If every country in the world were to revert to the stone age today, China would still be polluting more than enough to kill us all anyway.

Taxation treaties are merely veneer, not solutions. The economic collapse has already slowed down industrial production, and the demand for oil. The price of commodities is dropping. More accurately, the commodities bubble is deflating along with the real estate bubble, the high tech bubble, and the vastly over valued stock market.

This is not going to help the Communist countries one bit. In fact, any time that China's economy has grown by less than an annual 4%, the Communist government takes draconian action.

If Hoagland is right about anything, it's that what the people need quite desperately, is some advanced form of so called, "free energy".

Misti Parker said...


The Problem of Enmity

By JR Nyquist

"Citizens are not going to accept facts, logic or testimony that effectively forces them to relinquish their life style or limit their choices. Surrendering the consumer economy and the shopping mall regime "

"To the comfortable creatures that dwell at the "end of history," the truth of history is beyond understanding."

"the U.S. government is not free to halve the standard of living, curtail liberties and expel millions of resident aliens."

"Latter-day capitalist democracy refuses to fully recognize or oppose its enemies because recognition of the above points implies that peace is precarious and prosperity fragile."

Misti Parker said...

Estonia Uses the Euro, and the Economy is Booming

GlobalPost
| 05 Jun 2012 | 12:17 PM ET

It’s the euro zone Jim, but not as we know it.

Sixteen months after it joined the struggling currency bloc, Estonia is booming. The economy grew 7.6 percent last year, five times the euro-zone average.

Estonia is the only euro-zone country with a budget surplus. National debt is just 6 percent of GDP, compared to 81 percent in virtuous Germany, or 165 percent in Greece.

Shoppers throng Nordic design shops and cool new restaurants in Tallinn, the medieval capital, and cutting-edge tech firms complain they can’t find people to fill their job vacancies.

It all seems a long way from the gloom elsewhere in Europe.

Estonia’s achievement is all the more remarkable when you consider that it was one of the countries hardest hit by the global financial crisis. In 2008-2009, its economy shrank by 18 percent. That’s a bigger contraction than Greece has suffered over the past five years.

How did they bounce back? “I can answer in one word: austerity. Austerity, austerity, austerity,” says Peeter Koppel, investment strategist at the SEB Bank.

After three years of painful government belt-tightening, that’s not exactly the message that Europeans further south want to hear.

At a recent conference of European and North American lawmakers in Tallinn, Koppel was lambasted by French and Italian parliamentarians when he suggested Europeans had to prepare for an “inevitable” decline in living standards, wages and job security, in order for their countries to escape from the debt crisis.

While spending cuts have triggered strikes, social unrest and the toppling of governments in countries from Ireland to Greece, Estonians have endured some of the harshest austerity measures with barely a murmur. They even re-elected the politicians that imposed them.

Chris Lopes said...

FlightSuit,
If the Chinese and the Indians won't adhere to any limits, and the rest of the western world is failing to meet even the modest quotas set by Kyoto, hobbling the US economy with such limits doesn't make sense. It's not a matter of principle, it's a matter of economics and practcality. Kyoto failed because no one who signed the treaty was really willing to pay the economic (and political) price for the modest gains the treaty really promised. If you can't work out an economically viable solution to the problem, it will not be solved.

FlightSuit said...

Chris, when our environment reaches the tipping point, it will cause every country's economy (and industry) to collapse. So one way or the other, we WILL stop our current economic and industrial practices. The only question is whether we'll be doing it voluntarily, and on our terms, or whether the environmental mess we've made will force those changes upon us.

America has always been the world's leader. There's no reason we should stop leading now.

Chris Lopes said...

FlightSuit,
You may believe that, but the Chinese, the Indians, and our western allies apparently don't. No country (that hasn't faced economic collapse first) has been able to meet the modest limits set by Kyoto. Until you realistically deal with the economic question, it's not going to happen.

Frankly, it's the failure of the AGW proponents to be honest about the economics of the situation that has caused them to lose the general public on the issue. All the guy on the street sees is a lot of 'the sky is falling' talk mixed with recommendations (made by people with pretty big carbon footprints BTW) about how they will have to do without while the rich can buy dispensations (carbon credits) for their energy use. You can't convince a man to help you save the Earth if he has to lose his job in the process.

Misti Parker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Misti Parker said...


The Sequence

by J. R. Nyquist, Global Analyst. August 28, 2009


Confirmation of “the Sequence”

By JR Nyquist03/04/2011

Those Who Know Will Understand
By JR Nyquist09/17/2010

Esteban Navarro said...

Wow! Many comments as it was night, here in Spain, in fact the transit of Venus has been seen only in Catalonia and the Balearic Islands…

Flightsuit, yourmissanderstanding´s probably due to my crap english ... In fact I quite agree with you, and of course, with the lucidity of Chris. Anyway I think you go too far on the influence of Hoagland. As I said in other reviews, some Expat´s posts ago: Hoagland not hypnotize anyone don´t be interested in being hipnotized.
People who vote for Republicans will not only vote them for denying global warming (Here we have “Partido Popular” , , Le Pen's party in France, etc ... In Europe we have clones of your “political choices”… )
Hoagland says only what their parishioners want to hear. There is a large supermarket of ideologies ufologic-new age .There´s a demand, so there is supply,

If he didn´t say that things another person would.I have no notice of violent "conspiranoics" actions…. The conspiranoic profile is only auto affirmative-discursive, not action at all. In fact, it's the opposite, Aldrin gave a punch to one once, (And I think rightly) ....Yes, there's far- right on junk science, but no more than any other religion or revealed truth (you see the links of Misti?... and "she" doesnt seem Hoaglandian, and clearly shows us as like ultranationalist ) ... as in any social group, the extreme right, ultraconservative, there at all sites, most often between the working class itself!. Let there be Catholics, or Evangelicals, etc ... who votes tea party , not mean that all Catholics, Evangelists, etc do, that's obvious , I think. (There are also truck drivers, carpenters, teachers, scientists ... who votes that thing also.
Anyway, I don´t think voting this or that really means so much.Hoagland's work is entrusted by his parishioners: only maintain and mislead people who want to stay in that situation,probably for confortable ideological convenient.

Esteban Navarro said...

Science and research are not threatened by that, but over the limited budgets and spurious job and research on militarism and strategic armaments, much better paid, beyond uncritical stupidity people who communes with these contents for centuries, in one form or another.
Some people want to be distracted and wrong, So what can we do?. At the time that you don´tt want to stay in that situation, you leave and that's it, if you have time and will, of course.But you´re gonna embrace another “true”

I don´t agree with “pail on the agony”on Hoagland or any other pseudo guru, exempting the real responsibility to their followers, who are the ones who consume the final product.

Directional reductionism is a too easy, in my opinion, reductionism is always so misleading than generalization . Is liket saying that all people are stupid, and that´s wrong, people are believer. The difference it providesby the kind of belief: Who are the bad guys for Hoaglandians?:NASA and the Nazis from Mars. Who are the bad for Misti? Foreign covered-hidden-concealed- Communists invaders and internal weakness. Who are the bad guys for me? :Wall Street, the IMF, the ECB, multinationals and savage capitalism in general…hmong other things.

We all have our "beliefs", our Faiths and cults. It´s a pillar of ideology, and everyone has one.
Capitalism and care for the planet is something incompatible ,even more urgent is to invest for the fact that we are lower- middle class ( by moment), precisely because 80 percent of the planet is to live in poverty and Unger, that´s for certain. And this has lasted throughout History, from the far XVI Century ´til now. Africa and South-America never been poor until we came. How can any land being poor, in first place?

Carlin tells it much better than me telling what i think. I never tire of recommending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JOmOnrJKghM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=vURE4N0W4CQ


Don´t you look, Mistyque!... I ´ll provide another link to you some other day:”American History X”, with Ed Norton...Well, I´ll give you I link a small appetizer from another movie, is fasciSnating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs5bnVoZK4Q

….And Remember: he was the worst communist of all ...: Thomas Jefferson.Repeat as a Mantra…

Esteban Navarro said...

I saw “Game change” on TV last week, with Julianne Moore, Ed Harris, and Woody Harrelson. Very nice portrait of Sarah Palin , And "the beginning" of that thing that the official media, on the petty surface as they have always been ,called "Tea Party".Nice portrait.

Ciao

Chris Lopes said...

At the risk of turning this thread back on topic (actually the AGW topic is a pretty interesting one in and of itself), I'd like to mention that the great event has come and gone without (unless I missed it) much commentary from Hoagland. I noticed he wasn't on C2C last night and there hasn't been an update to EM since the 20th. Does anyone know if Hoagland actually ventured outside of his living room to take 'readings' somewhere?

Misti Parker said...

Recent Posts By Others

Teddy Kidd
There is only one possible explanation as to why my account has not been blocked, my posts to this page deleted, and Dick hasn't said shit in days. Hoagy got a free ride to Egypt, after all.

Like · · 34 minutes ago


Teddy Kidd
First of all, the guy solicits $80,000.00 to do the experiment, then turns down an offer of forty grand, because he refuses to outline his theory to be tested. What is so complicated that he would need that much money in the first place? He and the redhead could have a nice vacation and visit the Sphinx for less than a couple of grand. He already owns the wrist watch and lap top. What more does he need? Nobody ever asked, and Hoagy never says.

29 minutes ago · Like

Misti Parker said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Misti Parker said...

Teddy Kidd
As long as Dick's out (of town), let's barbeque wieners in his back yard!

about a minute ago · Like

Teddy Kidd
I sure do hope that the Mars Revealer doesn't take unfair advantage of this precarious situation.

40 seconds ago · Like

Esteban Navarro said...

You´re right , Chris, not a word.But you Know , you have to be pacient.. .It´s Science, man!.He´s a tud busy....By the way, Bradbury is dead. Long live to Scy Fy!!

Greets ;)

Misti Parker said...

The transit is supposedly during the 5th through the 6th. Hoagland said he was going to conduct his experiment on Sunday, the 6th, but Wednesday is actually the 6th. In any event, he doesn't seem to be at home. Perhaps he will be doing something today, in Egypt?

Misti Parker said...

Carbon Corruption
Iran, North Korea, Sudan rack up millions by trading U.N. carbon credits
AP

AP
BY: Zach Noble - June 13, 2012 5:00 am

The U.N. is funneling millions of dollars worth of tradable carbon credits to corrupt nations worldwide, including Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Uzbekistan in an attempt to encourage clean energy projects in the developing world.

The U.N. Clean Development Mechanism (CDM) is defined in Article 12 of the Kyoto Protocol. Western European countries fund energy projects in the developing world in order to obtain Certified Emission Reduction credits (CERs), tradable credits that enable Europeans to count foreign emission reductions towards their own domestic emission reduction targets.

[continuing]


http://freebeacon.com/carbon-corruption/