Last night on Coast to Coast AM Richard Hoagland announced that the Egyptian jaunt is off. He's going back to Coral Castle instead.
Toldja.....
71 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Haha, oh what a surprise! Never saw that coming - now to keep an ear out for anyone whispering the word "REFUND"...........
But then, how can Hoagie be expected to discover the HD magic if his faithful aren't prepared to skip a few days meals and donate a few bucks -nay, sell their cars, kids and kidneys- and gift him as many thousands as he needs.
Hoagland once claimed to George Noory when George asked him whether he was going back to Coral Castle in the future that the Castle had "been done", and that the physics could only be truly confirmed if it was verified at other locations. Guess it hasn't been done enough.
At first, I thought this week's "Pseudoscientist" was a rerun, but then I realized that it had just been on for eight more seasons and they were starting to recycle storylines. It's kind of sad to see the main character getting so old without getting anywhere in life, but I always love the new characters they bring in to spice things up. I want more Cousin Bara! I love that little scamp!
You can't exactly imagine Hoagie publicly posting a BULLETIN to announce his failure to get to Egypt... (certainly not without spin)... and yet, it's not exactly the kind of thing he can quietly avoid come transition time, for those who missed the news.
Perhaps he should take the many tens of thousands of dollars he did receive (and by that I mean the $127.48 or whatever it was) and go to the great pyramid on the Vegas strip... it's near enough the same a Giza, right?! Or do HD torsion waves only occur in exotic locations?
No, I'm not shocked he isn't going. Taking readings never seemed like the kind of thing you could convince many people to fund in any case, and given the current political climate there, it's just as well. I also don't have any sympathy for the those who sent him money. As the old saying goes, "a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place."
@Chris - the political climate in Egypt was always going to be a major factor and yet "surprisingly" I never saw any of the faithful think to question Dick about it. Of course, perhaps the current political situation and violence was created deliberately just so Dick couldn't take his readings come 2012, and expose this suppressed physics - after all, those space nazi's DID use their torsion ray guns on the Towers specifically because Elenin would come by exactly ten years later to the day......... makes sense when you put your Hoagie thinking cap on!
Anonymous - Noory actually brought up the Egyptian political climate on Coast a few weeks back. Hoagland thought it would aid his research because Zahi Hawass has lost his position and the new government was desperate for tourists and would therefore allow him extensive access. I'm betting he was following his own intuition on that score, as usual overestimating his own influence and reputation.
Expat, I just want to say I'm amazed by the work you've done on this blog. It was brought to my attention less than a week ago, and ever the course of several days, I read almost every single one of your blog entries, starting from oldest to newest.
I used to be an avid Hoagland fan and believer. Although I did eventually figure out that he was a huckster, and that he was wrong about a great many things, it wasn't until I read your laborious examinations of his endless Gish gallops that I realized he wasn't just wrong about a lot of things, but that every damned thing he's ever claimed has been wrong.
Even when I was a fan and a believer, I found it difficult to muddle through all of his writings. That you've forced yourself to do so is truly commendable.
I have now officially lost ALL FAITH in humanity. Some people should not be allowed access to oxygen, let alone the internet.
http://i45.tinypic.com/29q0d2p.png
If my partner wanted to donate FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS of my money to a hack so he can have a holiday because his "scientific theory" sounds "convincing enough", it should be a legal requirement to have said partner euthanized on the spot... (even if it is a "free" country where people can do as they want with their own cash).
Well done, Mr Hoagland - I have mocked you for all the wrong reasons: if I had myself a die-hard groupie cult worshiping my every, authoritative word on total BS, I too could have people throwing money at me to go on vacation. Well played.
Anon, That was interesting. I can see though that Hoagland would be playing with fire on this one. The lady's partner would no doubt take legal action should this go beyond the message stage. It could get very messy for everyone involved.
Not unless her partner fully consents to handing over the $40,000 if he feels his scientific requirements have been met before hand by Hoagland (which I doubt they will, if her partner is a REAL scientist). Far be it from me to tell others how they should spend their own money, but should this be the case, they deserve to lose/waste $40k IMO.
I'd say there's a 90% chance Irene Gardner is trolling Hoagland. Of course, if he goes on C2C AM tonight and announces that the funding came through and he's heading to Egypt, I'll have to eat my words.
Yes, I know it's not likely that Hoagland and his girlfriend or wife could get to Egypt on just $40K instead of the original $80K, but they can probably manage if they leave some of the scientific equipment at home or fly coach.
@FlightSuit - I'm not often on Hoagie's FB page, and I did not check out this lady's profile, but on face value, she seems to come off as genuine (imo) and has a different tone to the usual Dick-loving brigade... I think the offer is genuine should Dick be able to provide the necessary requirements upfront (which I highly doubt he can); but you might be right, she might be a "troll" - I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, either way.
I've said in previous posts on previous topics that if Dick REALLY wanted to be in Egypt for the last transition it could be done for a fraction of the $40k let alone the $80k (or even the original $100k he had in mind); so I guess it's really a question of just how much does he REALLY want to go: is he prepared to not take all sorts of camera equipment and hardware (these would be essential to making DVDs for him to sell to his sheep), is he prepared to go on his own and not take doctor Robin and/or maybe a "helping hand" person/s (what significant role in the scientific process does she fulfill again??), is he prepared to "slum it" for a few days or does he need 5/10/15 days in a 5 star hotel etc etc...
We all know IF he ends up in Egypt he will be reporting back all sorts of amazing HD magical goings-on (it's not like he's gonna spend $4,000-$80,000 and say "sorry folks, nothing to report"); so if the expedition happens, the outcome is already known to a large degree.
It will certainly be interesting to see what comes of this over the next few days: it's certainly leaving it all very late... (which also might be a convenient excuse for Dick, no matter where he is come transition time).
In the sense that she demands Hoagland give her baseline and control data, she certainly does sound different from the rest of the crowd. But the sentence fragments and evident willingness to blindly front the cash if the moderating influence of her partner were not present make her sound all too familiar.
This should indeed be interesting. If Hoagland remains as duplicitous as he has been in the past, it's undoubtedly possible for him to manufacture some flatline baseline data that is convincing enough for the disciples. I do hope that the partner is more discriminating than Irene and that RCH doesn't get such a truckload of cash for his BS.
Either way, the partner is a better man than I. I appreciate a spirited debate as much as the next guy, but there is no way I'd be able to keep a relationship going if my partner believed such nonsense.
I'm looking at Hoagland's wall, and at his separate "public figure" fan page, and I'm not finding the post in question. Perhaps he deleted it to hide the shameful fact that he's looking to take $40K from one fan instead of $1 each from forty thousand fans.
@FlightSuit - The post is still there. There are about 7 posts on his "public timeline wall" thing, with Irene's just following. I've just taken a second screen pic so you can see the commentary: http://i47.tinypic.com/2w4ch9u.png
As for whether Dick would have any issue with taking $40,00 off one person, I highly doubt it. Whether you consider him a "liar" or just a true believer in his own delusions, surely there is no way he would turn this donation down (hell, such a donation only serves to re-inforce his theories).
If Irene Gardner is conning him, she's a genius. Imagine if she actually scammed some money off the guy, instead of the other way around?
The real question: Is Hoagland just egotistical enough to think he can win this rodeo? This may very well be a brilliant con, as its success would depend on Hoagland's belief that he's smarter than Irene.
Dick is absolutely an egotistical richard, who thinks he is smarter than Einstein, Hawking, Newton and every other chimp that has ever walked upright in this planets history (just ask his fluffers, they'll tell you)... and as much as I'd love to see this giant o' science get conned, I don't think Irene is asking for any money from him, so not sure how that would be the case?
A friend of mine on another site speculated that Irene might be a skilled grifter working what's known as a "long con." Conceivably, she might be laying the groundwork for a scam in which Hoagland is so convinced he's getting the money that when she asks him to for some reason provide her with some of his funds, he readily does so.
I'm not sure I'm understanding you right, FlightSuit - you said 'provide HER with some of HIS funds'-? Irene is asking for Hoagland to provide her with data, not money; and in return she will give him money. I don't see how Dick could be being scammed if she's only asking for data in exchange for money - but you might be right in saying it's part of a bigger scam or not really a genuine offer. Time will tell, there isn't long to go until the transition, so we'll know soon enough if he get's the $40,000 or not.
Anonymous, Flight Suit might be referring to the likes of the 'Nigerian' scam, where they promise you tons of money but first you have to fork out some of your own as 'administrative fees'!
Perhaps Irene isn't after Hoagland's money so much as evidence that he is a fraud. If there is money at stake, Hoagland is going to have to go out on a limb to provide evidence. A screen shot of a graph won't do. Note that Irene's "partner" is in the sciences, so that raises the bar even more. In order to reach that level, Hoagland will have to expose himself (and his methods) to more scrutiny than he is used to. The question is, will he take the chance of being found out in a very public way (his fans are no doubt paying very close attention to all this), or will he walk away and hope for the best? My guess is Irene wins either way (Hoagland may well spend the rest of his life regretting whatever choice he makes).
We all know how protective Hoagland is about publicly proving his stuff with REAL scientists, and reluctant to engage with anyone who questions him or who simply "doesn't get it"...
Even if Hoagie walked away from the offer or Irene called him out as a fraud upon submitting the data, he still has a die-hard fan base that will always believe the word of the master regardless of the "official reason" for the $40k deal not happening.
For $40k, I'd want to go myself and see the HD magic first hand... and if the trip does happen, either Irene will be satisfied with what he reports back, or she/her partner might poke holes in the data.
It's an interesting scenario and the clock is certainly ticking to get it all signed n sealed (plus, I wonder what other "evidence" Dick can present that cannot be found on his FB page or EM page or books or videos?!)
Anon, I'm sure if he thinks it's a real offer, he'll at least consider coming up with something that looks convincing. The problem is that he doesn't know what Irene's partner will demand and what he might accept as real evidence. I'm guessing that the demands will start out small, with Hoagland being able to bluff his way through it for a while. Once he's hooked though, what will be asked for will get more specific and more technical. Eventually it will exceed his limited abilities to fake, and he'll have to give up on the effort. In the mean time, Irene will have him jumping through her hoops. Damn I wished I had thought of that. :)
If Hoagland's greatest priority is for these measurements to be taken at Giza, why doesn't he put out a call for people who are already in Egypt to got to Giza on the appointed day and collect the data for him? That would be far more efficient, and cost a lot less. The Internet is good at facilitating such things.
@Chris - very possible indeed; but it's almost June, surely time is against Irene and her partner to make Hoagie jump through hoops?! I would guess this close to "transition time" it'll be a case of "here's all my data behind my theory, I need to arrange everything asap, so either you agree with me 100% or you don't." I'm sure all will become clear soon enough.
@FlightSuit - that's a ludicrous idea! What is Hoagie supposed to do for vacation and a sun tan if he pays people already in Egypt to measure his ectoplasm readings... (that and he's the only person who can detect them, remember!). I'd say you should ask him that on FB, but you'd probably get banned for being a "troll".
I don't think he would have to pay the people in Egypt to collect his data. I'm sure there must be somebody there who loves Hoagland's "research," and would be willing to do it for free.
He's NO WAY going to ship that Accutron watch anywhere. It's the only one he's got that reacts to a quick shake, or whatever it is that he does to it to make it give those frequency spikes.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here but a real scientific experiment wouldn't require you to ship your apparatus to somewhere else. All you'd have to do is send a detailed description of what the apparatus is composed of (both hardware and software) along with the specific procedures needed to put it together, calibrate it, and use it to take readings. The whole point is to provide results that can be duplicated. I mean CERN wouldn't send the LHC to scientists in Chicago to get confirmation on readings, so Hoagland doesn't need to ship his equipment to Egypt to get his.
Chris, I agree that this is largely an intellectual exercise, but with express shipping and specific instructions from Hoagland, it would absolutely be possible to reconstruct his experimental equipment in time by someone already in Egypt. But again, this would result in no fancy trip for the Man Himself to conduct the groundbreaking research. I mean, seriously. We're talking world shaking results, but you HAVE to have priorities.
jourget, I'm saying he doesn't even have to do that much. All he has to do is let experimenters in Egypt know what he used and how he used it. In real science, your results have to be able to be duplicated by other people using other equipment, otherwise they don't count. If what you are getting is tied too tightly to the specific equipment you are using, the suspicion is that the results are coming from the equipment (as in CERN and their faster than light neutrinos)and not reality. In this case, the only thing that has to go to Egypt is a long email.
I have been informed by Irene herself. That her partner has requested all experimental data, baseline and control be made public. It will then be examined by an engineering team at her partner's university. Should the veracity of the data fail to meet scientific standards, funding will not be forthcoming.
Trekker, It depends. Hoagland may just be arrogant and egotistical enough to think he can bluff his way around real experts, especially if he thinks there really is 40 grand within reach.
You are right though, it's a very big risk. The partner is not George Noory or Kerry Cassidy, and the engineering team isn't a bunch of star struck groupies. Hoagland is just as likely to walk away from this one.
With the transit happening in a week's time, surely it is way too late for Hoagie to compile all his data, give it to the university people, have them go through it with a fine tooth comb, give the nod to Irene to give the $40k (assuming for a moment, the university people agree with Dick), get the money into his account, books flights, arrange hotels, sort and permits or guides needed, conclude domestic personal plans etc etc and make it to Giza ready to record and report all the goings on.
If the trip does not happen, whether the offer was genuine or not (whether Hoagie would risk exposing himself or not), you can be sure the faithful will be fed stories of "time was just against us" and "if only Irene had come forward sooner" etc etc, with enough random pictures of graph-spikes to keep the majority happy.
Time being against Hoagie could be his best get-out clause.
[NB: the anon who is in contact with Irene is not the "me anon" who usually comments on this blog. But well done to him/her nevertheless].
"me anon", I agree that time is too short for the transit stuff being funded. On the other hand, Hoagland is always crying about needing more money for his "research", so perhaps he might try to convince Irene and her partner to fund his other projects. I imagine the same ground rules would apply though. That means Hoagland still has to make a choice between risking public exposure by experts, or walking away from enough money to keep him booze and Cheetos for a couple of years. It's an interesting problem.
@Chris - Irene would have to be one hell of a fan to give him $40,000 in return for..... well..... effectively telling her what she already believes. Paying for an actual research trip to Egypt is one thing, paying Dick's daily bills so he can sit care-free, in his basement, write his "papers" and preach to his flock on C2C is another. (Surely she can't be that much of a fan?!?).
Even if 100 of the university people said his stuff was nonsense, he'd just say they "dont get it" and are "part of the system" - but I agree, it's definitely a head-turning donation that could prove very tempting to the ego to go for.
[think im gonna have to sign up to blogger and get a real user name!]
Yes the back and forth on this thing would be interesting. I'm sure it started out friendly enough, with Hoagland salivating at the thought of all that money. I'm also sure though that as the demands for actual evidence got more insistent, Hoagland became more belligerent. He may have even tried to turn Irene against her partner at one point. In the end, I guess he didn't think he could take the risk. In other words, he's admitting his stuff is nonsense.
You know that can't happen in a "timely fashion," certainly not before the Venus Transit; have you ever dealt with "university review committees?" :)
However, thanks for your kind offer.
But, if you REALLY have been following our work as closely as you stated on Facebook (all the way back to my "Cronkite Days," if not my UN presentation on Cydonia in 1992, with the warm endorsement of the Secretary General of the UN himself!), to say nothing of my recent New York Times bestseller, "Dark Mission" (with Mike Bara), then you already know what we are doing and both its importance ... and its veracity.
If all that can't convince your partner that we're at least "worth a shot," then, sadly, no amount of additional information at this point can convince such an individual "who had to be made" to even watch my UN speech .... :)
The fact that you are allowing your partner to dictate "who" and "what" YOU can support, in ANY amount ... raises all kinds of additional issues; others have already given large donations to further this research, based SOLELY on what's on the public record. The fact that you cannot (or, will not ...) do the same, again, in any AMOUNT -- without demanding totally unreasonable quantities of raw, propriority data to turned over to TOTAL styrangers, and far ahead of its planned formal publication -- tells me you're NOT serious.
Again, if I'm misjudging you, or your situation, I'm sorry.
Trekker, That sounds like Hoagland all right. The guy is supposedly on the verge of making the scientific discovery of the century, yet he sees he doesn't want to let go of his "data". I also love the "have you ever dealt university review committees?" line. Coming from a guy who's last formal academic submission was a High School term paper, it's (pardon the pun) rich with irony.
If you have to ask for "proof" you are clearly a troll or you simply just don't "get it" - HOW DARE time-waster Irene ask for the data to be vetted!! She should be stoned for not taking King Richard's word for absolute fact!
FlightSuit, It's creepy, but not unexpected. Hoagland once suggested to a reader of his FB page that he should skip a meal in order to afford Hoagland's latest video. When it comes to money, Hoagland has no shame.
Perhaps he is planning an "all of my baseline data from more than a decade" chapter for his new tome, The Heritage of Mars. Seeing as how Hoagland has never released a single control measurement for anything he has ever written about (Stonehenge, the Miami Circle, the NBC-funded Central America trip, etc.), there should certainly be enough proprietary data ready for "formal publication" to take up a substantial chunk of the book.
The "TOTAL styrangers [sic]" comment seems to exemplify his paranoid perspective on the mainstream scientific community. He's given up the days of addressing the UN and attempting to get formal validation of his work. Now, only people who have already accepted his conclusions can step onto his turf. Outwardly, he purports to be perfectly happy that he hasn't achieved widespread recognition, because "they" have all been corrupted anyway, but his clinging to the jargon of the discipline ("white paper", "sources", "verification", "reproduction", etc.) betray his desire to be seen as a legitimate scientist. Somehow, I don't think legitimate scientists spend as much time peering bleary-eyed through the slats of the venetian blinds to see if there are any "TOTAL styrangers" on the lawn, though.
Expat, That's the thing. If Hoagland really believed in his work, he'd jump at the chance (even without the money) for a team of real scientists to examine the data. The guy has spent 40 years supposedly trying to be taken seriously, yet he walks away from that chance.
This suggests 2 things. First, he knows that what he currently has isn't enough to convince real scientists of anything. Second, he knows he doesn't have the background (and this must really kill him) to make up anything that would be even halfway plausible to experts. He had no place to go on this one.
I'm still just shaking my head about the fact that I spent years of my life believing in this guy. Even as recently as the publication of Dark Mission. I hounded the bookstore, and got a copy on the first day it was available.
If only some of his disciples could think of these things............. but then, who needs academic approval when you can have scores of groupies telling you how amazing you are every day on bookfaceland (even if he would swap them all for official recognition in a millisecond)
FlightSuit, There is nothing to be ashamed of. Hoagland can be (or at least was) a very engaging speaker and his ideas are fun to think about. It would be a more interesting world if reality worked the way Hoagland says it does. Who wouldn't want there to be ancient ruins on Mars and the Moon? Who wouldn't want there to be secret technology that could give us "Star Trek in our lifetimes?" The idea that there are easy answers to today's problems is a very seductive one, and Hoagland is very good at selling that idea.
As to Dark Mission, it's actually a fun read if you view it as the back story of an X-Files like pulp science fiction novel (that the authors never got around to writing). I enjoyed it for the alternate reality feel of the thing. I imagine Joseph Farrell's works on Nazi super science have that same quality. As real science of course, it's pure bovine scat.
Thanks Chris, I'm not really ashamed, though. I view my own history as a lesson on how belief works, and how intelligent people can get sucked in by plausible, appealing pseudoscience.
Rather than feel embarrassed, I take some pride in the fact that my interest in Hoagland played a direct role in my very recently getting involved in the skeptic community.
You see, if it hadn't been for the efforts of one very patient skeptic I knew online, who repeatedly refrained from calling me an idiot while he calmly showed me over a period of time the problems with Hoagland's claims, I might never have gotten interested in skepticism.
FlightSuit, Good to hear. It's fortunate for all that you found a skeptic who didn't play into the smug stereotype. I've certainly seen my share of those and I always thought that if I hadn't already been convinced they were right, their actions wouldn't have done the job. Being a skeptic is not a license to be an ass. I'm glad you met someone who knew that.
You have my explicit permission to post whatever material you choose, and, to use my name should you think it appropriate.
Unlike Jon Corzine I made a bet I knew I could win. I didn't take 40-1 odds and I didn't use other people's money.
The Hoagland data would have been examined at the Dept of Electronics and Electrical Engineering at Glasgow. My $40k was safe as Hoagland could never have allowed this.
71 comments:
Haha, oh what a surprise! Never saw that coming - now to keep an ear out for anyone whispering the word "REFUND"...........
But then, how can Hoagie be expected to discover the HD magic if his faithful aren't prepared to skip a few days meals and donate a few bucks -nay, sell their cars, kids and kidneys- and gift him as many thousands as he needs.
I blame the fans.
Oh , guys, how the naughty boys you are.....Presenting :¡The Hoaglandettes!!!
Yes ,They had it coming...;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU-oFh0P0EM
Hoagland once claimed to George Noory when George asked him whether he was going back to Coral Castle in the future that the Castle had "been done", and that the physics could only be truly confirmed if it was verified at other locations. Guess it hasn't been done enough.
At first, I thought this week's "Pseudoscientist" was a rerun, but then I realized that it had just been on for eight more seasons and they were starting to recycle storylines. It's kind of sad to see the main character getting so old without getting anywhere in life, but I always love the new characters they bring in to spice things up. I want more Cousin Bara! I love that little scamp!
Nary a word yet on his Facebook pages. Can't wait for the outpouring of grief from the fans!
You can't exactly imagine Hoagie publicly posting a BULLETIN to announce his failure to get to Egypt... (certainly not without spin)... and yet, it's not exactly the kind of thing he can quietly avoid come transition time, for those who missed the news.
Perhaps he should take the many tens of thousands of dollars he did receive (and by that I mean the $127.48 or whatever it was) and go to the great pyramid on the Vegas strip... it's near enough the same a Giza, right?! Or do HD torsion waves only occur in exotic locations?
I think they're only detectable in places where Robin wants to go.
Why doesn't he just go to the Grand Canyon? That's near enough to where he lives.
No, I'm not shocked he isn't going. Taking readings never seemed like the kind of thing you could convince many people to fund in any case, and given the current political climate there, it's just as well. I also don't have any sympathy for the those who sent him money. As the old saying goes, "a fool and his money were lucky to get together in the first place."
A Seeker is born every minute.
@Chris - the political climate in Egypt was always going to be a major factor and yet "surprisingly" I never saw any of the faithful think to question Dick about it. Of course, perhaps the current political situation and violence was created deliberately just so Dick couldn't take his readings come 2012, and expose this suppressed physics - after all, those space nazi's DID use their torsion ray guns on the Towers specifically because Elenin would come by exactly ten years later to the day......... makes sense when you put your Hoagie thinking cap on!
Anonymous - Noory actually brought up the Egyptian political climate on Coast a few weeks back. Hoagland thought it would aid his research because Zahi Hawass has lost his position and the new government was desperate for tourists and would therefore allow him extensive access. I'm betting he was following his own intuition on that score, as usual overestimating his own influence and reputation.
Expat, I just want to say I'm amazed by the work you've done on this blog. It was brought to my attention less than a week ago, and ever the course of several days, I read almost every single one of your blog entries, starting from oldest to newest.
I used to be an avid Hoagland fan and believer. Although I did eventually figure out that he was a huckster, and that he was wrong about a great many things, it wasn't until I read your laborious examinations of his endless Gish gallops that I realized he wasn't just wrong about a lot of things, but that every damned thing he's ever claimed has been wrong.
Even when I was a fan and a believer, I found it difficult to muddle through all of his writings. That you've forced yourself to do so is truly commendable.
I have now officially lost ALL FAITH in humanity. Some people should not be allowed access to oxygen, let alone the internet.
http://i45.tinypic.com/29q0d2p.png
If my partner wanted to donate FORTY THOUSAND DOLLARS of my money to a hack so he can have a holiday because his "scientific theory" sounds "convincing enough", it should be a legal requirement to have said partner euthanized on the spot... (even if it is a "free" country where people can do as they want with their own cash).
Well done, Mr Hoagland - I have mocked you for all the wrong reasons: if I had myself a die-hard groupie cult worshiping my every, authoritative word on total BS, I too could have people throwing money at me to go on vacation. Well played.
Unbelievable.
http://i45.tinypic.com/29q0d2p.png
Anon,
That was interesting. I can see though that Hoagland would be playing with fire on this one. The lady's partner would no doubt take legal action should this go beyond the message stage. It could get very messy for everyone involved.
Not unless her partner fully consents to handing over the $40,000 if he feels his scientific requirements have been met before hand by Hoagland (which I doubt they will, if her partner is a REAL scientist). Far be it from me to tell others how they should spend their own money, but should this be the case, they deserve to lose/waste $40k IMO.
I'd say there's a 90% chance Irene Gardner is trolling Hoagland. Of course, if he goes on C2C AM tonight and announces that the funding came through and he's heading to Egypt, I'll have to eat my words.
Yes, I know it's not likely that Hoagland and his girlfriend or wife could get to Egypt on just $40K instead of the original $80K, but they can probably manage if they leave some of the scientific equipment at home or fly coach.
@FlightSuit - I'm not often on Hoagie's FB page, and I did not check out this lady's profile, but on face value, she seems to come off as genuine (imo) and has a different tone to the usual Dick-loving brigade... I think the offer is genuine should Dick be able to provide the necessary requirements upfront (which I highly doubt he can); but you might be right, she might be a "troll" - I'm sure we'll find out soon enough, either way.
I've said in previous posts on previous topics that if Dick REALLY wanted to be in Egypt for the last transition it could be done for a fraction of the $40k let alone the $80k (or even the original $100k he had in mind); so I guess it's really a question of just how much does he REALLY want to go: is he prepared to not take all sorts of camera equipment and hardware (these would be essential to making DVDs for him to sell to his sheep), is he prepared to go on his own and not take doctor Robin and/or maybe a "helping hand" person/s (what significant role in the scientific process does she fulfill again??), is he prepared to "slum it" for a few days or does he need 5/10/15 days in a 5 star hotel etc etc...
We all know IF he ends up in Egypt he will be reporting back all sorts of amazing HD magical goings-on (it's not like he's gonna spend $4,000-$80,000 and say "sorry folks, nothing to report"); so if the expedition happens, the outcome is already known to a large degree.
It will certainly be interesting to see what comes of this over the next few days: it's certainly leaving it all very late... (which also might be a convenient excuse for Dick, no matter where he is come transition time).
Stay tuned.....
In the sense that she demands Hoagland give her baseline and control data, she certainly does sound different from the rest of the crowd. But the sentence fragments and evident willingness to blindly front the cash if the moderating influence of her partner were not present make her sound all too familiar.
This should indeed be interesting. If Hoagland remains as duplicitous as he has been in the past, it's undoubtedly possible for him to manufacture some flatline baseline data that is convincing enough for the disciples. I do hope that the partner is more discriminating than Irene and that RCH doesn't get such a truckload of cash for his BS.
Either way, the partner is a better man than I. I appreciate a spirited debate as much as the next guy, but there is no way I'd be able to keep a relationship going if my partner believed such nonsense.
I'm looking at Hoagland's wall, and at his separate "public figure" fan page, and I'm not finding the post in question. Perhaps he deleted it to hide the shameful fact that he's looking to take $40K from one fan instead of $1 each from forty thousand fans.
@Jourget - I completely agree.
@FlightSuit - The post is still there. There are about 7 posts on his "public timeline wall" thing, with Irene's just following. I've just taken a second screen pic so you can see the commentary: http://i47.tinypic.com/2w4ch9u.png
As for whether Dick would have any issue with taking $40,00 off one person, I highly doubt it. Whether you consider him a "liar" or just a true believer in his own delusions, surely there is no way he would turn this donation down (hell, such a donation only serves to re-inforce his theories).
If Irene Gardner is conning him, she's a genius. Imagine if she actually scammed some money off the guy, instead of the other way around?
The real question: Is Hoagland just egotistical enough to think he can win this rodeo? This may very well be a brilliant con, as its success would depend on Hoagland's belief that he's smarter than Irene.
Dick is absolutely an egotistical richard, who thinks he is smarter than Einstein, Hawking, Newton and every other chimp that has ever walked upright in this planets history (just ask his fluffers, they'll tell you)... and as much as I'd love to see this giant o' science get conned, I don't think Irene is asking for any money from him, so not sure how that would be the case?
Stay tuned.........
A friend of mine on another site speculated that Irene might be a skilled grifter working what's known as a "long con." Conceivably, she might be laying the groundwork for a scam in which Hoagland is so convinced he's getting the money that when she asks him to for some reason provide her with some of his funds, he readily does so.
Probably not, but we're just speculating here.
I'm not sure I'm understanding you right, FlightSuit - you said 'provide HER with some of HIS funds'-? Irene is asking for Hoagland to provide her with data, not money; and in return she will give him money. I don't see how Dick could be being scammed if she's only asking for data in exchange for money - but you might be right in saying it's part of a bigger scam or not really a genuine offer. Time will tell, there isn't long to go until the transition, so we'll know soon enough if he get's the $40,000 or not.
Anonymous, Flight Suit might be referring to the likes of the 'Nigerian' scam, where they promise you tons of money but first you have to fork out some of your own as 'administrative fees'!
Interesting
It could be a "Nigerian" scam I suppose (that's not at 19.5 latitude by any chance, is it?) but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough........ :)
Perhaps Irene isn't after Hoagland's money so much as evidence that he is a fraud. If there is money at stake, Hoagland is going to have to go out on a limb to provide evidence. A screen shot of a graph won't do. Note that Irene's "partner" is in the sciences, so that raises the bar even more. In order to reach that level, Hoagland will have to expose himself (and his methods) to more scrutiny than he is used to. The question is, will he take the chance of being found out in a very public way (his fans are no doubt paying very close attention to all this), or will he walk away and hope for the best? My guess is Irene wins either way (Hoagland may well spend the rest of his life regretting whatever choice he makes).
An interesting point, Chris - and a possibility.
We all know how protective Hoagland is about publicly proving his stuff with REAL scientists, and reluctant to engage with anyone who questions him or who simply "doesn't get it"...
Even if Hoagie walked away from the offer or Irene called him out as a fraud upon submitting the data, he still has a die-hard fan base that will always believe the word of the master regardless of the "official reason" for the $40k deal not happening.
For $40k, I'd want to go myself and see the HD magic first hand... and if the trip does happen, either Irene will be satisfied with what he reports back, or she/her partner might poke holes in the data.
It's an interesting scenario and the clock is certainly ticking to get it all signed n sealed (plus, I wonder what other "evidence" Dick can present that cannot be found on his FB page or EM page or books or videos?!)
Well, we haven't yet seen results from his two collaborators in Chicago and Houston. They are potential controls.
Make that Chicago and Phoenix
Anon,
I'm sure if he thinks it's a real offer, he'll at least consider coming up with something that looks convincing. The problem is that he doesn't know what Irene's partner will demand and what he might accept as real evidence. I'm guessing that the demands will start out small, with Hoagland being able to bluff his way through it for a while. Once he's hooked though, what will be asked for will get more specific and more technical. Eventually it will exceed his limited abilities to fake, and he'll have to give up on the effort. In the mean time, Irene will have him jumping through her hoops. Damn I wished I had thought of that. :)
If Hoagland's greatest priority is for these measurements to be taken at Giza, why doesn't he put out a call for people who are already in Egypt to got to Giza on the appointed day and collect the data for him? That would be far more efficient, and cost a lot less. The Internet is good at facilitating such things.
@Chris - very possible indeed; but it's almost June, surely time is against Irene and her partner to make Hoagie jump through hoops?! I would guess this close to "transition time" it'll be a case of "here's all my data behind my theory, I need to arrange everything asap, so either you agree with me 100% or you don't." I'm sure all will become clear soon enough.
@FlightSuit - that's a ludicrous idea! What is Hoagie supposed to do for vacation and a sun tan if he pays people already in Egypt to measure his ectoplasm readings... (that and he's the only person who can detect them, remember!). I'd say you should ask him that on FB, but you'd probably get banned for being a "troll".
I don't think he would have to pay the people in Egypt to collect his data. I'm sure there must be somebody there who loves Hoagland's "research," and would be willing to do it for free.
So really, the only costs involved would be shipping whatever kinds of high tech equipment one uses for taking these measurements.
He's NO WAY going to ship that Accutron watch anywhere. It's the only one he's got that reacts to a quick shake, or whatever it is that he does to it to make it give those frequency spikes.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here but a real scientific experiment wouldn't require you to ship your apparatus to somewhere else. All you'd have to do is send a detailed description of what the apparatus is composed of (both hardware and software) along with the specific procedures needed to put it together, calibrate it, and use it to take readings. The whole point is to provide results that can be duplicated. I mean CERN wouldn't send the LHC to scientists in Chicago to get confirmation on readings, so Hoagland doesn't need to ship his equipment to Egypt to get his.
Not sure if the locals in Egypt would be able to construct their own Accutron watch, but I suppose it's worth a try.
There are a wide variety of Bulova Accutrons of many different model years available on Ebay, many with Buy it Now prices.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=bulova+accutron&_sacat=0
Chris, I agree that this is largely an intellectual exercise, but with express shipping and specific instructions from Hoagland, it would absolutely be possible to reconstruct his experimental equipment in time by someone already in Egypt. But again, this would result in no fancy trip for the Man Himself to conduct the groundbreaking research. I mean, seriously. We're talking world shaking results, but you HAVE to have priorities.
jourget,
I'm saying he doesn't even have to do that much. All he has to do is let experimenters in Egypt know what he used and how he used it. In real science, your results have to be able to be duplicated by other people using other equipment, otherwise they don't count. If what you are getting is tied too tightly to the specific equipment you are using, the suspicion is that the results are coming from the equipment (as in CERN and their faster than light neutrinos)and not reality. In this case, the only thing that has to go to Egypt is a long email.
I have been informed by Irene herself. That her partner has requested all experimental data, baseline and control be made public. It will then be examined by an engineering team at her partner's university. Should the veracity of the data fail to meet scientific standards, funding will not be forthcoming.
@Anonymous - Lol! In that case, I think we can all safely conclude that funding will not be forthcoming!!
Anon,
Great work.
Trekker,
It depends. Hoagland may just be arrogant and egotistical enough to think he can bluff his way around real experts, especially if he thinks there really is 40 grand within reach.
You are right though, it's a very big risk. The partner is not George Noory or Kerry Cassidy, and the engineering team isn't a bunch of star struck groupies. Hoagland is just as likely to walk away from this one.
With the transit happening in a week's time, surely it is way too late for Hoagie to compile all his data, give it to the university people, have them go through it with a fine tooth comb, give the nod to Irene to give the $40k (assuming for a moment, the university people agree with Dick), get the money into his account, books flights, arrange hotels, sort and permits or guides needed, conclude domestic personal plans etc etc and make it to Giza ready to record and report all the goings on.
If the trip does not happen, whether the offer was genuine or not (whether Hoagie would risk exposing himself or not), you can be sure the faithful will be fed stories of "time was just against us" and "if only Irene had come forward sooner" etc etc, with enough random pictures of graph-spikes to keep the majority happy.
Time being against Hoagie could be his best get-out clause.
[NB: the anon who is in contact with Irene is not the "me anon" who usually comments on this blog. But well done to him/her nevertheless].
"me anon",
I agree that time is too short for the transit stuff being funded. On the other hand, Hoagland is always crying about needing more money for his "research", so perhaps he might try to convince Irene and her partner to fund his other projects. I imagine the same ground rules would apply though. That means Hoagland still has to make a choice between risking public exposure by experts, or walking away from enough money to keep him booze and Cheetos for a couple of years. It's an interesting problem.
@Chris - Irene would have to be one hell of a fan to give him $40,000 in return for..... well..... effectively telling her what she already believes. Paying for an actual research trip to Egypt is one thing, paying Dick's daily bills so he can sit care-free, in his basement, write his "papers" and preach to his flock on C2C is another. (Surely she can't be that much of a fan?!?).
Even if 100 of the university people said his stuff was nonsense, he'd just say they "dont get it" and are "part of the system" - but I agree, it's definitely a head-turning donation that could prove very tempting to the ego to go for.
[think im gonna have to sign up to blogger and get a real user name!]
RCH declined the offer. That is all the information I have at the moment.
This is excellent sport. I hope Irene makes the comms. public.
Yes the back and forth on this thing would be interesting. I'm sure it started out friendly enough, with Hoagland salivating at the thought of all that money. I'm also sure though that as the demands for actual evidence got more insistent, Hoagland became more belligerent. He may have even tried to turn Irene against her partner at one point. In the end, I guess he didn't think he could take the risk. In other words, he's admitting his stuff is nonsense.
Irene,
You know that can't happen in a "timely fashion," certainly not before the Venus Transit; have you ever dealt with "university review committees?" :)
However, thanks for your kind offer.
But, if you REALLY have been following our work as closely as you stated on Facebook (all the way back to my "Cronkite Days," if not my UN presentation on Cydonia in 1992, with the warm endorsement of the Secretary General of the UN himself!), to say nothing of my recent New York Times bestseller, "Dark Mission" (with Mike Bara), then you already know what we are doing and both its importance ... and its veracity.
If all that can't convince your partner that we're at least "worth a shot," then, sadly, no amount of additional information at this point can convince such an individual "who had to be made" to even watch my UN speech .... :)
The fact that you are allowing your partner to dictate "who" and "what" YOU can support, in ANY amount ... raises all kinds of additional issues; others have already given large donations to further this research, based SOLELY on what's on the public record. The fact that you cannot (or, will not ...) do the same, again, in any AMOUNT -- without demanding totally unreasonable quantities of raw, propriority data to turned over to TOTAL styrangers, and far ahead of its planned formal publication -- tells me you're NOT serious.
Again, if I'm misjudging you, or your situation, I'm sorry.
"Totally unreasonable quantities of raw, propriority (sic) data"....
Good god, what an egotist!!
"far ahead of its planned formal publication..."
Er, I think we're talking about the 2004 Venus transit, and its baselines & controls. How much time does he want to get them published?
This is hilarious. I'd like to "re-blog" the whole story but I think I need permission from Irene.
Trekker,
That sounds like Hoagland all right. The guy is supposedly on the verge of making the scientific discovery of the century, yet he sees he doesn't want to let go of his "data". I also love the "have you ever dealt university review committees?" line. Coming from a guy who's last formal academic submission was a High School term paper, it's (pardon the pun) rich with irony.
If you have to ask for "proof" you are clearly a troll or you simply just don't "get it" - HOW DARE time-waster Irene ask for the data to be vetted!! She should be stoned for not taking King Richard's word for absolute fact!
[-the "anon" not in contact with Irene]
Hoagland's letter to Irene is the funniest damned thing I've seen in a long time. Love those smiley faces he keeps typing.
How creepy that he's actually trying to undermine her relationship with her partner. That's something cult leaders do.
FlightSuit,
It's creepy, but not unexpected. Hoagland once suggested to a reader of his FB page that he should skip a meal in order to afford Hoagland's latest video. When it comes to money, Hoagland has no shame.
Expat,
Since what was posted on this blog was taken from Hoagland's public facebook page. I'd assume tacet approval from Irene.
Perhaps he is planning an "all of my baseline data from more than a decade" chapter for his new tome, The Heritage of Mars. Seeing as how Hoagland has never released a single control measurement for anything he has ever written about (Stonehenge, the Miami Circle, the NBC-funded Central America trip, etc.), there should certainly be enough proprietary data ready for "formal publication" to take up a substantial chunk of the book.
The "TOTAL styrangers [sic]" comment seems to exemplify his paranoid perspective on the mainstream scientific community. He's given up the days of addressing the UN and attempting to get formal validation of his work. Now, only people who have already accepted his conclusions can step onto his turf. Outwardly, he purports to be perfectly happy that he hasn't achieved widespread recognition, because "they" have all been corrupted anyway, but his clinging to the jargon of the discipline ("white paper", "sources", "verification", "reproduction", etc.) betray his desire to be seen as a legitimate scientist. Somehow, I don't think legitimate scientists spend as much time peering bleary-eyed through the slats of the venetian blinds to see if there are any "TOTAL styrangers" on the lawn, though.
Yes, handing your data over to "TOTAL styrangers" is known to real scientists as "peer review."
Expat,
That's the thing. If Hoagland really believed in his work, he'd jump at the chance (even without the money) for a team of real scientists to examine the data. The guy has spent 40 years supposedly trying to be taken seriously, yet he walks away from that chance.
This suggests 2 things. First, he knows that what he currently has isn't enough to convince real scientists of anything. Second, he knows he doesn't have the background (and this must really kill him) to make up anything that would be even halfway plausible to experts. He had no place to go on this one.
I'm still just shaking my head about the fact that I spent years of my life believing in this guy. Even as recently as the publication of Dark Mission. I hounded the bookstore, and got a copy on the first day it was available.
Live and learn.
If only some of his disciples could think of these things............. but then, who needs academic approval when you can have scores of groupies telling you how amazing you are every day on bookfaceland (even if he would swap them all for official recognition in a millisecond)
FlightSuit,
There is nothing to be ashamed of. Hoagland can be (or at least was) a very engaging speaker and his ideas are fun to think about. It would be a more interesting world if reality worked the way Hoagland says it does. Who wouldn't want there to be ancient ruins on Mars and the Moon? Who wouldn't want there to be secret technology that could give us "Star Trek in our lifetimes?" The idea that there are easy answers to today's problems is a very seductive one, and Hoagland is very good at selling that idea.
As to Dark Mission, it's actually a fun read if you view it as the back story of an X-Files like pulp science fiction novel (that the authors never got around to writing). I enjoyed it for the alternate reality feel of the thing. I imagine Joseph Farrell's works on Nazi super science have that same quality. As real science of course, it's pure bovine scat.
Thanks Chris, I'm not really ashamed, though. I view my own history as a lesson on how belief works, and how intelligent people can get sucked in by plausible, appealing pseudoscience.
Rather than feel embarrassed, I take some pride in the fact that my interest in Hoagland played a direct role in my very recently getting involved in the skeptic community.
You see, if it hadn't been for the efforts of one very patient skeptic I knew online, who repeatedly refrained from calling me an idiot while he calmly showed me over a period of time the problems with Hoagland's claims, I might never have gotten interested in skepticism.
And I am proud of my newfound affinity for the skeptic community, which I used to so distrust.
It feels like growing up.
FlightSuit,
Good to hear. It's fortunate for all that you found a skeptic who didn't play into the smug stereotype. I've certainly seen my share of those and I always thought that if I hadn't already been convinced they were right, their actions wouldn't have done the job. Being a skeptic is not a license to be an ass. I'm glad you met someone who knew that.
IF (comment == empty one-liner that worships me) THEN
EXIT
ELSE
delete comment
END IF
Dear Expat,
You have my explicit permission to post whatever material you choose, and, to use my name should you think it appropriate.
Unlike Jon Corzine I made a bet I knew I could win. I didn't take 40-1 odds and I didn't use other people's money.
The Hoagland data would have been examined at the Dept of Electronics and Electrical Engineering at Glasgow. My $40k was safe as Hoagland could never have allowed this.
Kind Regards
Irene Gardner
Hoagland outfoxed. Brilliant.
I can not wait to read Expat's blog entry chronicling this latest episode in Hoagland's adventures.
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