Tuesday, June 26, 2012

Expat eats his words as Hoagland begs on C2C

Chris Lopes offers this review of last night's three-hour flim-flam on Coast-to-Coast AM:

         Not only was Hoagland begging for money for his trip to Egypt, he was also trying to get himself (and his redheaded sidekick) attached to the expedition investigating the "mysterious object" in the Baltic Sea. He even used (yet again) a quote from 2001: A Space Odyssey (another "what did Stanley know and when did he know it?" moment) to prove that the something is HD related. BTW, he got the quote wrong. In the movie the lady Russian scientist says her husband is doing "underwater research" in the Baltic not "underwater archaeology". In any case, it was a throw-away line used to show (by inference) the kind of social circles Heywood Floyd travels in.

        He did indeed spend a lot of the show going over his Accutron research, with the expected (by me anyway) result. I have suggested elsewhere on this site that such a topic would not exactly make for great radio. Hoagland was kind enough to prove me quite correct in that idea. It especially dragged when Hoagie decided to give a lecture on the history of HD physics, which couldn't have been more boring if he'd tried.

        I too thought the 12 hours thing was amusing (Expat adds: He said that "The Accutron went nuts for 12 hours non-stop" on the occasion of the summer solstice). Apparently "Mr. Science" didn't realize that the Earth was moving during that time and putting large bodies of water (that magic stuff that blocks HD waves remember?) between his watch and whatever celestial phenom was supposedly affecting it. Someday he'll learn to keep his BS straight, but last night was not that day.

        Mars was also covered for a bit, with Noory offering and Hoagland accepting praise for his "foresight" that Mars had recently (in the geological sense, a fact even Hoagland was sure to mention) had water. Hoagland then made a prediction about Obama (which he apparently no longer sees as destiny's child) saving his reelection by announcing evidence of microscopic life on Mars. I think it's interesting he has stepped back from his earlier prediction of an announcement of past intelligent life on Mars.

        The listener calls were lame as usual. The effort to protect Hoagland from questions that might expose him has left that part of the show as lifeless as it gets. There was one listener who offered a more conventional explanation for the Baltic thing, but Captain Not-So-Obvious was having nothing of that.

        All in all, it was a typical Hoagland/Noory show. Boring and pointless, with no chance for the listener to get those 3 hours of their life back.

40 comments:

expat said...

About the "Baltic Sea UFO," I only know what Mr. Google tells me, but what he's saying is that it's quite likely to be a hoax.

Misti Parker said...

As for the Baltic undersea curio, Hoagland presents a plausible explanation as to why it wasn't whisked away to the Indiana Jones warehouse. Nobody can get near the thing with any sort of removal equipment, because of torsion interference.

Chris Lopes said...

Expat,
First, thanks for posting my review. I thought the show deserved some discussion, but it's your site, not mine.

Second, I had the same thought about the Baltic object, especially when Hoagland mentioned how the researchers went looking for funding first. The "our instruments don't work near it" gag is a great way to explain not having any real evidence to support the claim. The idea that the hoaxers in this case would let Hoagland in on their con is laughable.

jourget said...

Seems as though he's also quietly dropped his firm prediction that Biden will be dropped in favor of Gabi Giffords as Obama's term two running mate. Never has so much been gotten so wrong by so few.

Anonymous said...

@Jourget - but barry is a re-incarnated Egyptian pharaoh who had the sphinx built in his image, and he's from magic 19.5 Hawaii, and he will lead us all into a golden age where we'll learn our true history, everyone will have free HD energy and travel amongst the stars in a 17x booming economy, and everyone will love each other and everything will be super wonderful forever and ever and ever... so it doesn't really matter who the VP is when you're a "Light Being" of such epic magnitude as good ol' Baz is.

Binaryspellbook said...

I listened to an old C2C with Art Bell, who introduced Hoagland and then added, "just in case you are saying, "so what ?" - I will tell you who Richard Hoagland is."

I could only stomach a little bit. There are 18 or so YouTube segments to this interview. In it he brags about his Angstrom medal, and his discovery of the Cydonia "mathematical codes."

He then tells everyone that although he is a proponent of HD physics it was actually James Clerk Maxwell who developed the theory of Hyperdimensional Physics, and that Maxwell's quaternions were the key.

He then describes Maxwell as an ENGLISH physicist. Anyone who knows anything about Maxwell knows he was SCOTTISH.

I bet he would claim (similar to the spaceship/craft crap he pulled), that Maxwell was "working" in England at the time he developed his EM theory - therefore making him an English physicist. Rather than admit he was wrong.

Binaryspellbook said...

10Hoagland self aggrandising 1995 style

Chris Lopes said...

jourget,
I had forgotten about the Gabi Giffords thing. He was also claimed that Obama had a Shuttle launch scheduled (where he and Giffords would be there to see it) to coincide with the Royal Wedding of Prince William. He kept claiming that the launch would happen at 19:50 London time. I spent a rather useless night trying to teach him the difference between London time and UTC time (at that time of the year, they are an hour apart). Finally, when he could no longer deny the evidence presented (nor could his followers), he claimed he meant UTC time as that is what TPTB work on. In any case, the flight was delayed and Obama never got to watch it.

Binaryspellbook,
Thanks for the blast from the past. Yeah, Hoagland was just as arrogant back in the day as he is now, and just as likely not to know what he is talking about. I think the difference is that back then he was actually entertaining. I think the fact that Bell was a lot more willing to challenge him (yes, "a lot" is a relative term here) made for a more interesting show. I know he doesn't sound all that entertaining in retrospect, but that's because we now know what a total fraud he is. That kind of takes the fun out of his "City on the Edge of Forever" routine.

jourget said...

Chris,

Ah, yes! The wedding thing. Aside from the time zone ignorance you've already pointed out, he also made a fool of himself by dramatically pointing out that the correlation was significant because William could become king at any time. That was one of the very few times that Noory actually corrected him, and there was a hilarious moment when RCH fumbled around when he realized that Charles is actually the heir presumptive. I doubt he ever actually looks anything up, such is his belief that he must always be right in his deductions.

Chris Lopes said...

jourget,
I had forgotten about that one too. I think he doesn't bother looking things up because he doesn't expect anyone else will. That's what he's been doing all these years on his FB page, making sure he has an audience who won't look it up. He doesn't care if he's right or wrong, just that he is presumed to be right.

Anonymous said...

England/Scotland - ah, near enough the same thing from all the way in New Mexico; William/Charles - ah, that's kinda the same thing too... details, details, let's not focus on those, not when we know what Hoagie "means" or is "trying to say" - unless of course there is a 19.5 somewhere in there, then the details are SUPER important!

I've only listened to the first half of his C2C show, but I notice on other forums and blogs there's a lil bit of talk about Hoagie now hopping on the "Baltic Sea UFO" band wagon - I can only assume there are no comets passing by this week, or no new sci-fi movies at the cinema?!?... People have written he misquoted/miscontextualized a line from '2001 ASO' and connected torsion physics to it in any way possible to spread his bets; but I'm not sure if I'll be able to endure the 2nd half of the show just yet...

Chris Lopes said...

Anon,
I only caught it because I was awake at that hour. If you can't find it in yourself to listen to it all, that just means you are one of those odd people who wants to keep their sanity and actually has a life. :)

expat said...

One of the FB disciples is already wishing him good luck for the Baltic Sea expedition. They simply pay no attention to reality...

Anonymous said...

@Chris - the first half of the show was a challenge to listen to, just the same old general fluff, no specifics, nothing interesting. It's like C2C had no one else to fill 3 hours of airtime. I couldn't endure another 90 mins of it.

@Expat - his FB fans are wishing him luck for the Baltic Sea expedition? Whaa? Hoagie isn't planning on now going to Sweden with his wristwatch now as well, is he?

Chris Lopes said...

Anon,
He certainly would like to go to the Baltic with his watch thing, if someone else (the organizers of the current expedition) would foot the bill. I don't think there is any danger of that happening, but the attempt at co-opting another group's "research" is Hoagland at his pathetic best.

Anonymous said...

Yeah I didn't think for a second he'd be on his way to the Baltic (especially given the fact he couldn't raise the cash to get to Egypt), I just wondered if he'd publicly announced his availability to go and assist if other's would pay for it [in 2nd half of the show I not heard yet].

His ego is so big, think's himself so self-important, and is so deluded because he has thousands of fans to re-inforce the truth of the things he says, he feels he SHOULD be brought into every "weird science" thing around the world; for he is the world's leading expert in HD going's on (and everything is HD according to Dick).

Plus, Hoagie can't be accused of co-opting anything if another group is publicly putting their research out there: tis the same as his association with Judy Wood's stuff - that is how science evolves after all... you know, unless you're trying to look at any of Dick's research, in which case it's copyrighted, secret and not available for freebies.

Chris Lopes said...

Anon,
He talked about his going a couple of times during the broadcast. His point was that since he is the only one who really understands what is going on, he and his laptop/watch equipment (I'm not sure what function Robin would serve, but lets not go there) would be the perfect addition to the expedition. Again, I doubt the organizers will see it that way. If they are earnest, there is nothing in Hoagland's background that says he can help them. If they are pulling a hoax, he doesn't add to the believability of the claim, and they are unlikely to want to share the glory (and money) with him in any case.

Anonymous said...

Exactly. Very well put.

Typical Hoagie: "I'm the HD expert, only I can piece together and knows what's going on, so they should want someone of my stature there - and be grateful for the opportunity to have me".

I don't believe for a second that 2 scuba divers are about to reveal to the entire world they have found a craft from another planet, and the human race is beyond a doubt not alone in the universe. However, from what I've seen so far, the divers and expedition seem to be quite genuine and legit in who they are and what they've done for a long time - point being: why would a bonafide salvage/exploration team possibly want some old dude from New Mexico who writes books about Mars and the moon, who has no science degrees, is not known in the relevant circles, and who smacks of amateurism when he's occasionally allowed onto a midnight radio show known for paranormal story-telling... but hey, why let logic and the obvious get in the way of Team Hoagland's band march...

Chris Lopes said...

Anon,
That sounds about right. I'm also inclined to agree with your earlier statement about C2C needing to fill time. I can't believe that Noory thought a discussion about graph and Hoagland's make believe physics would be even the least bit interesting. He tried his best to keep things flowing, but Hoagland is in so much love with his own narrative, that he can't be contained beyond the 1 hour mark.

Anonymous said...

Richard C Hoagland is a con artist, a liar, a fabricator & a charlatan. Even his initial claim of being the godfather of "Mars anomalies research" is false.Most of his "The Monuments of Mars" material was stolen from Walter Hain "We from Mars" (1979).

Chris Lopes said...

Anyone know when the 1st edition of Monuments of Mars was published? I'm thinking it was sometime after 1984 (from what I've been told by someone who knew him back then, that's about the time he really went off the rails), but I can't be sure. I don't know how into the Face on Mars Hoagie was before then.

From the Wikipedia article on Hain, he seems to have gone in a different direction than Hoagland. That doesn't mean Hoagland didn't take some of Hain's ideas. Hell, he's stolen material from everyone else (Joseph Farrell, Judy Wood, Heinlein, Clarke...), why not Hais.

expat said...

Monuments of Mars 1st edn was 1987. Thanks, anon, for bringing Walter Hain to our attention.

Chris Lopes said...

1987 would have given Hoagland enough time to become aware of Hain's work and digest it sufficiently enough to put his own spin on it. That seems to be his method of operation. He turned Farrell's secret Nazi tech into an HD physics based break way civilization made up of bad guys from a Robert Heinlein kids novel. He also turned Judy Wood's work into further proof of the same meme. So yeah, it fits the pattern.

Does anyone know a good site with a comprehensive look at the work of Walter Hain?

jourget said...

There's a little tiny blurb about the English version of Hain's book here:

http://web.utanet.at/mahain/We_from_Mars_Book.htm

If those Contents headings are close to accurate, Hain also talked about Phobos (and/or Deimos) being artificial before Hoagland brought it up. In addition, Hain's "80 million years" is really close to Hoagland's "65 million years" date for the explosion of Mars' companion (really close in the sense that the specificity of Hoagland's date is based on nothing whatsoever).

I'm starting to feel more generous toward his Elenin and YU55 proposals, as it seems that they may represent the only original work he's ever done.

expat said...

...Hoagland's "65 million years" ...

which is odd because he got the whole idea from Tom Van Flandern, an astronomer with one foot in the mainstream and the other in woo-woo. TVF wrote that the explosion was only 3.2 million years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Van_Flandern

[[I'm starting to feel more generous toward his Elenin and YU55 proposals, as it seems that they may represent the only original work he's ever done.]]

Well, don't forget his "original" proposal that a methane bubble at 100,000 psi was going to wipe out Florida (snigger).

Anonymous said...

Expat.I own a copy of Walter Hain "We, from Mars -old & new hypotheses about the Red Planet" (the translated & revised version,released in 1992,125 pages).I would describe it as a pseudo scientific hogwash, but contrary to Hoagland`s work, you get the feeling that Hain is a true believer & possesses a genuine interest in what he is doing (his correspondence with JPL`s Public Information spokesman Don Bane, is quite interesting)

PS, I love your blog,its is the ultimate Hoagland debunking resource on the Net

Chris Lopes said...

jourget,
Hain may have mentioned Phobos being artificial before Hoagland, but did he ever connect it to a mediocre episode of a 1960's science fiction series? Huh? I thought not.

See, that's where the originality comes in. Hoagland was able to connect someone else's work with yet another person's work. It's stealing on a multitude of levels, a form of hyper-dimensional plagiarism if you will.

Anon,
Hain sounds like quite the character. A true believer can be a joy to watch as they defend their thesis. It's the people who try to promote ideas they know are wrong (the world of politics is just as bad at this as pseudo-science) that really tick me off.

jourget said...

Chris,

Yes, indeed. The connections are where the entire Hoagland mythos takes off. The following is from a great examination of conspiracy theories in contemporary America, Michael Barkun's "A Culture of Conspiracy", University of California Press, Berkeley (2003), pp.6-7. Barkun divides conspiracy theories into:

"Event conspiracies. Here the conspiracy is held to be responsible for a limited, discrete event or set of events. The best-known example in the recent past is the Kennedy assassination conspiracy literature, though similar material exists concerning the crash of TWA flight 800, the
spread of AIDS in the black community, and the burning of black churches in the 1990s. In all of these cases, the conspiratorial forces are alleged to have focused their energies on a limited, well-defined objective.

Systemic conspiracies. At this level, the conspiracy is believed to have broad goals, usually conceived as securing control over a country, a region, or even the entire world. While the goals
are sweeping, the conspiratorial machinery is generally simple: a single, evil organization implements a plan to infiltrate and subvert existing institutions. This is a common scenario in
conspiracy theories that focus on the alleged machinations of Jews, Masons, and the Catholic Church, as well as theories centered on communism or international capitalists.

Superconspiracies. This term refers to conspiratorial constructs in which multiple conspiracies are believed to be linked together hierarchically. Event and systemic conspiracies are joined in complex ways, so that conspiracies come to be nested within one another. At the summit of the conspiratorial hierarchy is a distant but allpowerful evil force manipulating lesser conspiratorial
actors. These master conspirators are almost always of the Type I variety—groups both invisible
and operating in secrecy. Superconspiracies have enjoyed particular growth since the 1980s, in the work of authors such as David Icke, Valdamar Valerian, and Milton William Cooper"

Within this context, Hoagland began by examining an event conspiracy, namely, the coverup of the "structures" at Cydonia. His systemic conspiracy took shape as he constructed the mythology around the suppression of the evidence of ancient civilizations throughout the solar system over the course of the entire space program, the evil organization being NASA. His superconspiracy brings in everything else perpetrated by the Nazis/Masons/Magicians in pursuit of their larger goals, such as 9/11, the coverup of hyperdimensional physics, Obama's mystical Christmas cards, etc., etc., etc.

I find Barkun's further contention that these kind of constructs become much easier to put together after the advent of the Internet to be highly plausible, and that does seem to be the point at which Hoagland began to take flight to this degree. I know there are other superconspiracies out there, but Hoagland's is by far my favorite. It's one of my favorite fictional tales ever told!

Chris Lopes said...

jourget,
That sounds like a very interesting book. I'll have to find it and give it a read.

You are right, Hoagland's journey certainly follows the event-systematic-super conspiracy path. The conspiracy had to get bigger to explain away the continuing lack of evidence for his ideas about Mars. Now it has pretty much consumed every part of his narrative to the point of absurdity and beyond. Everything (even presidential Christmas cards) is now part of this super conspiracy and is further evidence that he is right and the world is wrong. If I actually thought he believed this crap, I'd be forced to feel sorry for the guy.

FlightSuit said...

Has Hoagland ever explained, simply and concisely, exactly what HD physics is?

I see him talking about it all the time, but I've never seen him explain what it is and how it differs from normal physics.

Also, since he knows so much about HD physics, you'd think he'd be able to design some type of machine or experiment which demonstrates HD physics so the rest of us could see it in action.

strahlungsamt said...

I remember reading Carl Sagan's "The Cosmic Connection" as a kid. In one chapter called "The Moons of Barsoom" (Barsoom being the name Edgar Rice Burroughs gave to Mars), he described being in the control room as the images from Phobos came back from the first Mariner probe.

In one of the images, a bright light was visible and he theorized that it might be a star shining through a hole. Phobos was known to be pretty light so a hollow moon was a possibility. Others believed it might have been an alien lamp on the surface. Either way, once the image was processed for single-bit errors, the light disappeared.

I haven't had a copy of the book in years so the details are a bit fuzzy but I do remember Sagan mentioning a Russian scientist who actually believed Phobos was hollow and may have possessed aliens.

If anyone has a copy of "The Cosmic Connection", please look up this chapter and tell me what it said. The book dates from the late 60s/early 70s so Hain probably wasn't the first either.

Then again, there was Percival Lowell with his canals back around 1900 and Jonathan Swift in the 17th century.

Tara Jordan said...

(I am the anonymous who mentioned Walter Hain)
I happen to be a very good friend of Paul Estrada the Principal Investigator at SETI Institute, NASA researcher & former student of late Carl Sagan.I can assure you,that contrary to what Hoagland claims,astrophysicists & astrobiologists are not secretive & closed minded individuals..They are more than willing to discuss issues & questions regarding exobiology,exogeology & even exo-archeology.I`d be happy to pass along any questions you might have regarding Sagan`s interests in Mars & Phobos

expat said...

strahlung: That'd be Iosif Shklovsky, co-author with Sagan of the book Intelligent Life in the Universe (1966). Shklovsky did indeed theorize that Phobos was artificial, based on its orbital characteristics. Later his estimate of altitude loss of 5cm/yr was found to be in error. There's a good account of the controversy here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_%28moon%29#Shklovsky.27s_.22Hollow_Phobos.22_hypothesis

FlightSuit: No, to the contrary he's been comprehensively evasive about what HD physics actually is, and Mike Bara's been even worse. They wrote about it at great length without actually explaining anything.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/physics.html

(Note that, in common with Hoagland's other flim-flam theories, he uses other people's work shamelessly.)

expat said...

Tara: Thanks very much, a valuable offer.

Chris Lopes said...

strahlungsamt,
The scientist Sagan mentions (he also wrote a book with him) is I. S. Shklovskii. Shklovskii based his hypothesis on the effect that the Martian upper atmosphere seemed to be having on Phobos' orbit. By his calculations, the density of Phobos would have to be 1/10000th that of water. That would point to it being artificial.
Work done by G. A. Wilkins on the other hand, suggests that Phobos' orbit isn't being affected by atmospheric drag at all.

Your memory of the bright light incident is spot on. That's pretty much how Sagan described it. It was a light that caused some interest at first, but disappeared with the data cleanup.

FlightSuit said...

Thanks, Expat. I thought maybe, just maybe, there had been some blog post somewhere in which Hoagland actually told us what HD physics was. It's beyond comical that he's spent so much time telling us about a type of physics that doesn't exist.

I guess the benefit he gains from having it be totally undefined is somewhat similar to the benefit naturophaths derive from there being no clear definition of naturopathy:

It can be whatever they want it to be.

Tara Jordan said...

Expat, you`re more than welcome.)if you want to get in touch, I`m on Twitter) https://twitter.com/#!/Unkindbydesign

expat said...

Tara: Paul might be interested in Carl Sagan's Christmas Lectures, recorded 35 years ago and showing the charm with which he addressed a young audience. The videos have only recently been released by the Royal Institution:

http://richannel.org/christmas-lectures/1977/1977-carl-sagan

Lecture #1 includes historical misconceptions about Mars but doesn't mention Shklovskii. #6 includes a film sequence of Carl's students solving a 3-D puzzle -- maybe Paul's one of them?

Tara Jordan said...

Expat.Thank you for the link

Misti Parker said...

Recent Posts By Others

Colonel William Berry
‎.:.

Let's play Dunk the DJ!

A great fun, fund raiser to send Captain Hoagland on a Mission to the Baltic Sea, to test the submerged artifact for Hyper Dimensional output!

Here's how it works. A DJ sits on a bench above a pool of water. Fans pay for tokens to be exchanged for balls to through at a target. A bulls eye results in the pins being pulled out from under the bench, and the DJ drops into the pool of water. What could possibly be more fun?

All of Captain Hoagland's supporters on Coast to Coast AM will love to participate: George Noory, Ian Punnett, George Knapp and John B Wells. Good sports all in favor of a worthy cause.

http://www.twisterdisplay.com/ProductPages/EasyDunker.htm

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