Wednesday, March 20, 2013

Yes, Hoagland & Bara really do believe their nonsense

        Trained Observer asked about this today, in a comment to the previous post. Since H&B are not saying or writing anything I can critically review at the moment1, I thought I could cobble together a posting on the subject.

        I truly believe they believe. Their problem is that they're so totally devoid of training in science that they lack the capacity for complete rational thought. As I wrote at least once recently, they seem to get ideas, then short-circuit the normal process of checking whether the ideas have any validity or evidential support. Instead, the ideas go straight to the printed page, or the radio show, or the pseud-psych conference auditorium. There are thousands of examples of this phenom. Well, perhaps hundreds.

        The motivation is a) making a living, and b) developing a following. By any measure, you'd have to say that in both cases they're a partial success. Probably more than if they'd turned the ideas into sci-fi—a very crowded field of endeavor. True, there is some evidence that Hoagland is hurting for funds (the rather desperate appeals to his disciples for cash), but he's not on the streets. In a triumph of "form over function", the fact that they are both really good at presenting themselves blinds radio show producers and conference organizers to they fact that they basically deal in lies.

As for building a following, comments like this are a commonplace:
"He is no crook. It is just the way he sees things. I was glad he was on coast again last week or the week before. Can't wait for another full 4 hour show with him! Hoagi is the best!"
 (sylvie82311, on Youtube, commenting on the Chichen Itza débacle)
 "Mike Bara has 4 published books, 2 television shows that he regularly appears on and several international radio shows. He has seen massive success and the only thing you've managed to master, is how to stalk him while bitching like the cunt you are. Find something better to do with your time, dickwad, because you clearly do nothing else right now, aside from twiddle your needledick to Mike's books and shows. WE GET IT, YOU'RE MAD HE WONT FUCK YOU... now move on, psycho."
 (Sara Shanae,  sniping at James Concannon on FooBoo)

        I hesitate to play psychiatrist (having no particular training in the discipline), but it's also possible that Mike Bara is one sandwich short of a picnic. Don't you wonder about a non-fiction author who includes his pet cats2 in his acknowledgements? Or who applauds diatribes like the above insultathon?

Lunomaly

        T.O. also asked about Allan Sturm, who posts to internet forums as Lunomaly, and who very painstakingly teased out what he says are the artifacts of a lunar civilization from some Apollo images. Mike Bara used some of his work in Ch.9 of AAotM. Since his publisher only allowed one measly 4-page color signature in the book, the Sturm content was monochrome only, but one color example was used in Mike's online image library. It's nice work, judged strictly as computer art, but scientifically worthless.

image credit: Adventures Unlimited Press and Allan Sturm

This, Mike says, is a power plant. On p.223 he writes
"I wanted Allan's work to be a central part of this book, but for personal reasons he declined. However, I consider some of his findings so crucial ... that I don't feel they can be excluded."
        My sympathies are all with Sturm. I'd decline, too, if some two-bit author said he was about to rip off my ideas to make a little spare cash, and would it be OK if he used ALL my work instead of just bits of it?
============================

1. Hoagland is, understandably, somewhat preoccupied by the fact that his companion, Dr Robin Falkov, had major colon surgery this week. I wish her well even though I think her views on health are as wrong as Richard's views on Phobos. Bara is off shooting somewhere on his Top Secret video project.

2. The Lady Aurora and Miss Fluffy-Muffy, acknowledged in AAotM

60 comments:

Chris Lopes said...

Bara is certainly ignorant enough to believe this nonsense. His inability to form any kind of defense for the work (beyond calling people "homos") proves he doesn't understand even the basics of his own bullshit. So yes, he's working on the pure believer level.

Hoagland (as I've said in another thread) knows a little too much to really believe his crap. Granted, he doesn't know nearly as much as he thinks he knows, but he knows enough to know what kind of questions not to answer. He's just too good at avoiding the real questions about his work for him not to know it's all a lie.

Anonymous said...

Good piece.

Personally I tend to see these issues not as much as a lack of rational capacity but more as a surplus of something else, some strong emotion, neurosis, obsession, whatever. It just seems to have taken over.

Would the motivation of lets say RCH be really making a living though? Perhaps enough to retire safely at some point but the lack of interest in maintaining the website or updating his Facebook, his consistent lack of follow-ups of his hit pieces (which would be easy enough to write considering the lowered standards) speak a whole other story in my opinion.

Same issue with developing a "following": if that's a motive then is RCH not behaving exactly the opposite way? Apart from being Coast to Coast regular, where he can drift in the glow of an immediate large audience and hear his own voice... to create an actual following doesn't seem to be on his mind. He basically ignores most of them, a complaint I've heard for more than a decade now, even from people thought to be closer to the "inner circle" (if any).

D.

Anonymous said...

very generous post expat. IMHO, neither of them believe what they're saying (I don't believe either are actually fully insane, even Bara is not that mental if he's managed to accomplish as much as he has) but its so crucial to their finances that they have no choice but to carry on inventing more and more fiction and passing it off as reality.

Chris said...

I rather suspect that Sara Shanae is Mike Bara. Same style of sexual narcissism. Either that or Stockholm syndrome runs deep with the more pathetic followers.

expat said...

Yes, Chris, this was suggested before and I don't discount it. But 'Conspiracies and Underground News' is a fairly high-traff page. I don't see that Mikey has the time for it.

Very true that RCH's lack of attention to the website, the $4/month forum, and the Book of Faces does not bespeak someone who is highly concerned about building a following. It's possible that he just thinks he's updating. After all, every time he's on C2C George Noory signs him off with a reference to "enterprisemission.com, where you'll find all the latest."

Chris Lopes said...

Hoagland's gross lack of attention to either the website or the FB page may have a couple of explanations. First, he may feel that he has enough followers and enough material to ride out the rest of his career and that more effort won't really get him more paying customers.

Second, more material and interaction has it's risks. The more he puts out and says on record, the more people like Expat will be able to demonstrate what nonsense he's peddling. I mean if you restrict your audience to just people who believe crystals have magic powers, you are less likely to be called out for any gross errors involving orbital mechanics. So it's safer to restrict yourself to noncritical audiences.

expat said...

Wow, I'd love to believe that. It would mean we're making a difference...

Chris Lopes said...

Think about all the time Hoagland devoted to the FB page. For a good 2 or 3 years, he was there pretty much night and day. When he wasn't busy deleting unfriendly posts, he was trying to make the news of the day fit in his ever growing mythology. He'd spend hours entertaining the faithful with his BS, and basking in their love.

Then the trouble makers arrived. Those no-goodniks who used real science to ask him uncomfortable questions, questions that other people like Expat were asking elsewhere. Questions that the faithful never thought to ask.

Hoagland was game at first. He figured he knew more about this than they did. It became obvious after a while though, that BSing wasn't going to work with them, so they had to be gotten rid of.

The thing is, the minute he did that, others popped up. Reasonable people who were sitting on the fence suddenly saw a very narrow minded fellow who wasn't giving straight answers. They began to ask similar questions and were treated with the same contempt. But still they asked.

After a while, Hoagland began to see that as long as he was out there with the fans, someone was likely to ask a question he couldn't answer. So he's pulled up stakes and won't even post his appearances on C2C there any more. Years from now, Hoagland will be just another myth on the internet, like Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster.









Chris Lopes said...

Hoaglamd spent years on the website and the FB page, using the former to spark activity on the later. The later was then used to prove to radio shows and conference organizers that he was relevant and had a following. So the FB page was very important to him. So the question becomes why, after so many years of being his main instrument of fan base management, has he abandoned it?

It would be understandable if he'd found a new venue that was better for his purposes, but he hasn't. It would also be understandable if he suddenly had no use for a fan base, but that's not true either. So one is left with finding another solution to this mystery.

My solution comes from asking another question, what has changed from the time Hoagie set up the website and page and now? His critics are now talking to each other and sharing insights, technical knowledge, and what they know about Hoagland and his history. So Hoagland can no longer count on his questioners being less knowledgeable than he is on a particular topic. In plain English, he can no longer count on his bullshit sticking to the wall.

This site gave some of us the information we needed to ask the questions Hoagland didn't want to answer. With that information, we were able to join people like James Concannon in at least trying to make Hoagland live up to the scientific principles he claimed to believe in. While he never lived up to them, he was forced to demonstrate to the fair minded what he was really about.

That's why when us trouble makers were finally kicked out (when someone finally showed Hoagie how FB works), the questions didn't go away. Other people (some of his followers even) kept after Hoagland to explain his work. When he couldn't, that became obvious.

It all came apart during the Elenin thing. His pronouncements were too public and the failure was too obvious for anyone on the fence to ignore. It's about that time that Hoagland decided to take a break from his FB page, never it seems to return. In time, he'll become just another mythical creature like Big Foot or the Loch Ness Monster.

Anonymous said...

I believe that Mike believes most if not all of what he prints. I believe Hoagland believes little if not none of what he prints. Hoagland is the consummate charlatan, and Bara is Victim Number One.

-Jim

Trained Observer said...

Thanks for taking so much time in considering my questions. I think the real answer involves part delusional thinking and part opportunism. I have been caught up in the troughs of delusional thinking from time to time myself during my life. Having been a UFO buff since an early age I think I have believed every popular notion about the things at one point or another over the years as my education progressed before finally arriving at my present cynical and disillusioned state. (ah-hem) During a rare lucid moment some years ago I realized there was really no difference between the UFO/paranormal subculture and that of say, the Pentecostal Holiness subculture, or the any other folk religious movement for that matter. There are "seekers" looking for something called "the truth" and many embark on the search ill equipped and ill prepared for what and who they will encounter along the way. If at some point they realize they've been duped, now what? Looking around they see other credulous seekers practically begging to be duped as they were. Do they cry "foul" or join the club and partake in the "fleecing" rather than being one of the fleeced? It depends on something on "character" I suppose. On Alan Sturm's wagon wheel photo: I am still mystified by that one. I imagine it could be a copier or emulsion type artifact some kind. I admit I haven't spent a great deal of time trying to pinpoint the location on the moon to look for other photos of the region because as I mentioned earlier, I'm a bit paranormally disillusioned at this point and that sort of thing is a time consuming exercise.

Chris Lopes said...

Some of the "delusion" you see among fans of this stuff is more like a "hey, don't ruin this fun game we are all playing" kind of thing. I got the impression that a few of the more faithful on Hoagland's FB page really didn't believe in his stuff any more than I did, but were enjoying the make believe aspects of it. It's like they had turned the thing into a very elaborate X-Files type role playing game and people like me were breaking their suspension of disbelief. It was a vibe I picked up a number of times in the middle of discussions when Hoagland wasn't around.

James Concannon said...

Chris, I know exactly what you mean. I sometimes got the same vibes. Good point.

FlightSuit said...

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging your cats!

Anonymous said...

Trained Observer, I think you make many very valid points.My 'belief' progression in UFO's is almost the same as yours. As a teenager (well before the internet!) I devoured books about UFO's/Aliens..They had to be some truth in it all. later the likes of Hoagland's utterings (who makes a point of NOT going down the UF/Alien route) were simply another facet to explore. I can relate to the 'following' thing because I wanted to believe it must have a basis in fact-all of it. The internet made it worse, now we had/have access to anyone who wants to put their point across, without review, corroberation or even based on truth and evidence truth these self same proponents claim to be seeking! Ludicrous! Thankfully, I quite quickly came to the conclusion 99.999% of what I was reading was bullshit. It isn't just Hoagland of course, Wilcock, Icke, and 'Jordan Maxwell' are all in the tel em what they want to hear brigade. It's a religeon for many, a substitute for a deity.

expat said...

>>There's nothing wrong with acknowledging your cats!<<

I think it's a bit naff[1], personally, in a book selling itself as sciency.


Footnote 1. NAFF was originally London gay slang meaning "Not Available For Fucking". It's come to mean anything a bit icky.

FlightSuit said...

I feel a person's wealth should be measured in cats.

Bruce said...

Expat, what kind of work have you done on the Billy Meier case?

http://theyflyblog.com/nasa-considers-hiringbilly-meier-to-predict-incoming-asteroids/03/22/2013

The above article refers to asteroid 1950 DA which was discovered in 1950, then lost track of, but then refound in 2000, when astronomers calculated its orbit and passage date. However Billy Meier passes on info in 1987 that earth astronomers didn't figure out until some 13 years later.

If that isn't enough, there is http://theyflyblog.com/nasa-corrects-apophis-information-size-is-almost-exactly-what-billy-meier-foretold/01/14/2013 , where Meier passes on info in 2008 that asteroid Apophis was about 350 meters, while at the time, earth astonomers had it pegged at 270 meters. Until January 2013 when earth astronomers changed its size to 325 meters as their best guess.

expat said...

I haven't shown much interest in Billy Meier. People who claim regular contact with extraterrestrials without ever introducing us to them seem to me a bit dangerous. Thanks for the info, however -- I read it with some interest.

Bruce said...

Expat, fwiw, Meier has his reasons why he doesn't parade his ET friends in front of the masses, mass media, scientists, governments, etc .. nor would they agree to such a show for reasons which are well explained in his writings.

FlightSuit said...

Wait a minute Bruce, astronomers believed the asteroid was 350 meters, but Meier said it was 270 meters, and then it actually turned out to be 325 meters?

Holy mackerel, that's a direct hit! That's almost as good as Hoagland and Bara predicting something will be found at 19.5 degrees latitude or longitude, and then it being found at 21 degrees latitude or longitude!

STUNNING CONFIRMATION!

Seriously, though, Meier lost all credibility when model UFOs just like the ones in his photos were discovered in the shed behind his house.

Oh, and let's not forget his dinosaur photo, which he claimed he snapped during a time travel expedition the ETs took him on. That photo was later revealed to be identical to a photo in an illustration in a children's dinosaur book.

Meier had literally aimed his camera at a page of the book and tried to pass off the result as a blurry snapshot of actual dinosaurs.

Gotta give him credit for running a successful scam, and for his creativity and chutzpah, though. I do like his flying saucer models. They're very aesthetically pleasing, and certainly influenced the artistic sensibilities of the UFO community for many years.

Anonymous said...

Chris Lopes: "His critics are now talking to each other and sharing insights, technical knowledge, and what they know about Hoagland and his history".

It's true enough. It was in 1996 when I was to some degree interested in the various TEM announcements and that was partly based on the lack of criticism from the mainstream press who still covered some of the press conferences and the presence of at least a collection of scientifically trained people linked to some degree to RCH or his work. Something might be there, I thought, pondering the mysteries of this universe as often I could.

Only a bit later, I think in 1998 with the rebuttals coming from Ralph Greenberg finally a serious challenger appeared.

Although I've been able to investigate and pick apart some of RCH's "fact book" myself over time, and my own growing involvement with the space industry helped, I can only stress how important it is that people with some reputation to loose do speak out in these cases.

For example it took NASA a long time to really put together a serious rebuttal to some of the charges. My guess is that they tried to ignore it for many years as not to encourage the weird by all the attention somehow!

It was only in the time of the BAMF drama that another policy seemed in place and NASA clearly directly engaged now with the "anomaly hunters". Personally I believe this approach worked very well!

It's also true what you say Chris about information now being quicker looked up, verified and shared than in the past. It's getting harder for RCH to find something that is vague and mysterious enough to use convincingly for a little while.

Actually come to think of it there never really was a public platform for in depth discussion with the Masters (not counting some Art Bell on-air confusion). The closest thing I witnessed (and not much went past me) is this blog he had for a while before Facebook. He really went into a few things with challengers but perhaps he grew tired of it. He did quite well there I must say, even when he was at the wrong side of things most of the time. He's still very bright even if cornered!

My own take is that he's mostly grown tired of the fame and limits his engagement to the activities he enjoys most while caring for the ones he needs caring for.

D.

FlightSuit said...

Anonymous, it's not that NASA was ignoring Hoagland; I have it on good authority from another commenter here that, in fact, most NASA employees have simply never heard of Hoagland.

Being a big deal in pseudoscience circles does not necessarily translate into actual scientists and engineers having any idea who you are.

Bruce said...

Flightsuit, do you have a reading comprehension problem? or are you simply twisting what I wrote for your underhanded slimy disinformation purposes?

Try reading what I wrote: to make it simple for you - Meier passed on info from his ET friend that Apophis was "about 350 meters". That was in 2008 when earth astronomers had it pegged at 270 meters. Fast forward to January 2013 and earth astronomers changed their educated guesstimate to 325 meters. Got it?

Regarding the rest of the lame debunking that you apparently swallowed hook, line and sinker from other underhanded slimy crooks with an agenda to disinform, all has been explained. I will not go into it here. If anyone has any interest, they can find out for themselves.

Don't you have something to say, perhaps, let me guess, some cynical, factless, wise-crack about asteroid 1950 DA which Meier's contacts pegged its earth flyby date precisely and 13 years before earth astronomers came up with a date?

I await your creative or not so creative denial & dismissal of the verifiable facts presented.

Chris said...

Bruce, the null hypothesis is that there are no time-travelling extraterrestrials visiting individual people and taking them on journeys back through time so they can return to the present to pretend to have photographed a dinosaur.

Or to put it another way - grow up?

FlightSuit said...

Bruce, I know nothing about this asteroid flyby you speak of. I have, however, seen the dinosaur which Meier claimed he had shot during a time travel trip with the aliens.

And I have also seen a scan from a page of a children's dinosaur book which had been published prior to Meier releasing the dino photo, and which contained the exact, same image that is in Meier's dino photo.

You say all has been explained?

OK, I will gladly listen to how Meier or his followers have explained the stunning similarity between the two images.

And yes, I'm aware that Meier had some kind of explanation for why there were homemade flying saucer models in his shed, but I don't recall exactly what his explanation was.

More importantly, come on! A guy cranks out a series of UFO pics and movies, including at least one in which the saucer moves exactly like it would if it were dangling from an invisible wire, and then he gets caught with saucer models in his shed.

You have to admit that looks very fishy to any reasonable person.

Bruce said...

Chris, you're kidding, right? Apparently not. Uh, let us put it this way: Go back 100 years & tell the people that in 100 years there will be something called computers. Tell them there will be something called an internet. Tell them about cell phones & that the entire planet will be connected. I bet they'd trot out the old null hypothesis of the day and say something trite and dull, like "Grow up?"

Flightsuit, I just presented you with the facts of that asteroid flyby, which you can check & verify for yourself. Meiers info was right on the money & 13 years ahead of terrestrial scientists. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, but only after you've checked the facts. Something that Hoagland & Bara cannot do. HUGE difference right there.

Regarding the dino photo you've mentioned: enemies of Meiers, and there are plenty! Considering he's had 21 documented assassination attempts on his life. Apparently his info is threatening to many in high places, in powerful places. His enemies use any & all means at their disposal to discredit him such as planting obvious fakes, such as famous dino paintings and taking pictures of that or the Dean Martin girls, etc.

Regarding the saucer models, the explanation is: He made saucer models! His wife knew that and when they divorced she tried to exact revenge by pointing out such things in addition to outright lies. All of Meier photos & films were taken before the current digital age, where doctoring photos can be done by anyone. His photos were thoroughly tested by experts of his day & even decades later and passed. There is a kid, Phil Langdon, who was pushed by Michael Horn to try to duplicate Meiers photos & films & he did a credible job, even as they are obvious fakes, but he would not let his work be professionally tested, because they'd never pass professional scrutiny.

Ms Emma Peel said...

Bruce.
Even the most gullible dolts inside the UFO community consider Meier to be a con artist & a fraud.If you are willing to swallow his outrageous
crap ,especially since it has been debunked decades ago,you`re only 3 steps from being labeled at semi retarded.

Anonymous said...

I just wanna know why all these alien types who like billy more than anyone else like to park their UFO's in trees.

http://theyflyblog.com/nasa-considers-hiringbilly-meier-to-predict-incoming-asteroids/03/22/2013

What? Are they too cheap for landing gear?

Anonymous said...

Flightsuite: "I'm aware that Meier had some kind of explanation for why there were homemade flying saucer models in his shed, but I don't recall exactly what his explanation was".

In Gary Kinder's book this was mentioned. There were even slides of the models in existence made by Meier and he even admitted he created the models and the slides as some kind of "test" and also tried to burn the slides to prevent "misunderstandings".

Gary Kinder is a pro-Meier author, just saying. He wasn't even trying to see this in a negative light at all..

D.

Bruce said...

Ms Emma Peel,

I'll stick to the facts & you can stick to your not only semi-retarded but fully-retarded & juvenile insults.

Here's another one for you to stick in your pipe & smoke, but beware your head may explode trying to dismiss the truth in the form of yet another confirmation of info that Meier has passed on.

Back in 1978, Meier wrote a book called "Life in the Universe" ... here's an excerpt that explains that 66 million years ago, the dinosaurs were wiped out due to a COMET striking the earth, not an ASTEROID as had been put forth by terrestrial scientists since the discovery of the Chicxulub crater.

http://www.theyfly.com/gaia/toutatis.htm

"The first comet of this system was several times larger in diameter measuring 11,300 meters, as declared by the Plejarans, and hurried 1.2 million kilometers ahead of the smaller ones. It follows that around 66 million years ago, the giant entered into the direct orbit of Earth and plunged down into it, specifically in the still young and shallow Atlantic. The impact tore a crater around 200 kilometers in diameter and about 1,500 meters deep in the ocean floor. Through the violent energy of the impact, the comet was vaporized, as well as 120,000 cubic kilometers of water and rock from the ocean and the Earth mantel. Rock fragments, dust, molten rock, and immense quantities of steam were ejected into the atmosphere, while simultaneously, primeval tidal waves as well as fire and storm waves broke out and the entire Earth shifted over. The whole planet shuddered, and new and dormant volcanos erupted and produced a veritable inferno. Within only nine months, the Earthly atmosphere was saturated in a world-encompassing form through the gigantic masses of steam and highly ejected dust and soot particles in such a way that a powerful greenhouse effect developed. The temperature rapidly climbed about 27 degrees Celsius, and again cooled off to about 32 degrees Celsius lower than the temperature prior to the impact of the comet. The planetary temperature rise and subsequent temperature plunge was not the only aftermath of this catastrophe. The masses of steam and the dust and soot particles, which circulated in the atmosphere, grossly reduced the solar radiation and effected a global, incessant night and darkness lasting 342 years. There arose acid rains that destroyed much on the Earth right up to the buds, stemming from all the filth in the atmosphere.

These spoken of events were the reason the dinosaurs died out on the Earth as well as all animal life that weighed more than 36 Kilos (75 lbs.). Countless microscopic life was also destroyed in the waters and sandbanks, as well as manifold plant life on land and in water. The acidity of the acid rains also destroyed the plankton in the seas and other waters, as well as certain types of rocks and deposits of lime. The food chain of those creatures, that was dependent on the plankton nutritionally, was also destroyed by the death of the plankton and other diverse vegetable life-forms. The same also happened in the animal-world: Many types perished because of the eternal darkness and drop in climate, while others subsequently starved because their food-source, lower animals through which they had nourished themselves, had died."


=================================

So now, 35 years after Meier stated it was a COMET & not an ASTEROID that crashed into the earth 66 million years ago wiping out the dinosaurs, earth scientists have changed their long-held tune that it was an asteroid and are now thinking it was a comet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21709229


Thems the facts, Ms Emma ... you may wish to stick with the facts and toss out your fully-retarded juvenile biases, thought processes and false conclusions derived thereof.

Yet another difference between Meier and the Baras & Hoaglands & Ms Emma Peels of this world - verifiable facts.

Ms Emma Peel said...

Bruce,I know who you are,you are the credulous Billy Meier fan-boy who posted alongside Michael Horn on the Exposing Pseudo Astronomy Blog,last year.I am the one (Tara Jordan) who demolished Michael Horn`s fairy tale about "Meier meeting with Saddam Hussein",& Meier`s prediction of "Muslim riots in France".It`s on the record & I`m not about to waste my time with you.

http://pseudoastro.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/podcast-episode-49-billy-meier-michael-horn-and-asteroid-apophis-prophecy/#comments

FlightSuit said...

So Bruce, just to be clear, you're claiming that some unknown members of a vast and far-reaching anti-Billy Meier conspiracy took Meier's genuine photograph of dinosaurs, which he snapped during a time travel journey, and they made a painting which was identical to his photo.

Then you're claiming they took this painting and put it in a children's dinosaur book, which they put a false first-printing date on, in order to create the false impression that this book pre-dates Meier's release of his dino photo.

AND you're claiming that this conspiracy is so powerful that they could even retroactively get the Library of Congress to issue a fraudulent card catalog number for that book, in order to solidify the illusion that it had been published before Meier released his photo.

Naturally, they would have had to hunt down and destroy every single copy of the other extant book which would have legitimately bore the Library of Congress card catalog number, since some legitimate book from that era would have definitely received that number back during the printing date which the conspirators were trying to fake.

This is what you're claiming, Bruce?

Don't you think the likelier scenario is that the children's dinosaur book is real, and was really published before Meier made his claims, and he aimed his camera at a page of that book and tried to pass it off as a real dino pic, because it never occurred to him that some day, the Internet would come along and make it really easy for people to verify things?

Michael Horn said...

Tara et al,

Bruce indeed invited me to look at this latest forum which includes an assemblage of people who are uninformed about the truth of the Meier case.

A few things for the record, the blog that Tara posted on went to interesting lengths to tap dance around - and posit amateurish, unsubstantiated "explanations' about - the amazing information that Meier published about the core of Mercury and the double-crater in the Atlantic (http://theyfly.com/A-Sampling-of-Evidence.html).

Further, Stuart Robbins removed all attempts to post the information about Jupiter and Io that not only stumped the skeptics but that resulted in one of their best and brightest actually VALIDATING Meier's information (http://www.theyfly.com/corroboration-evidence).

And Tara - of course - misrepresented what Meier actually published:

""France will not only be invaded by the aggressors from the outside, but will also be conquered from within as a result of collaborative forces and other forces. This can be envisioned as being the many foreigners of a different religion living in France at that time, and specifically Islam, which will be this force working from within."

"And it will be that the fanatics of Islam will rise up against the countries of Europe and all will shake and quiver. Everything in the West will be destroyed; England will be conquered and thrown down to the lowest level of misery. And the fanatics and warriors of Islam will retain their power for a long time."

…the obviousness and accuracy of which will be self-evidence, if it already isn't.

People who talk about "models in sheds" simply have done no actual homework but certainly HAVE swallowed the disinformation hook, line and sinker. While there surely are exceptions, I hope, when people discuss the Meier case online and aren't expressing something north of neutrality, i.e. varying degrees of amazement, it's mainly because they are of the armchair expert variety for whom sitting down at the computer and pontificating serves as a substitute for deep thinking, research, investigation and/or any of a number of other valid involvements in real life.

(To be continued)

Michael Horn said...

(Continued)

Now, while I'm sure it would be fascinating to read more of the predictable, uninformed comments about the Meier case that have been the stuff of online forums for many years, my own schedule of interviews, international and national lectures, film production, etc., thankfully prevents me from doing so.

I will add that not one of the skeptical geniuses - not ONE - has ever actually debated me on the case and its evidence…and none will. Foolish claims like Tara's (among others) abound but would be easily demolished in such debates; certainly they wouldn't linger for a moment in anyone's mind as they may in these forums.

So, for those here who may actually have a sincere interest in knowing the truth, wherever it may lead, you'll find that the Meier case (and the man himself) has endured, has survived the 22 assassination attempts, the cowardly attacks, derision, etc., for over 50 years. It is destined to endure for many hundreds more years and to provide nourishment for those who hunger for the truth.

For those who, like the formerly skeptical retired physician and scientist, Dr. Weinstein (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXyHhUSeJeU), have the courage to challenge their own prejudices and beliefs and recognize Meier's "astonishing" and "amazing" prophetic accuracy, ample irrefutable evidence is posted now with great regularity on my blog.

And for those who aren't interested there is no problem of course; not everyone is drawn to explore the same thing. Just know that expressing one's "expert" opinions online is infinitely easier and free of any requirements of real knowledge, expertise, credibility, etc., than it generally was in the bygone days of the print-dominant medium. Unfortunately, mediocrity has been so...democratized that people actually take pride in it.

Lastly, no, by posting this comment here I am not trying to "sell" you anything, nor do I care to engage, defend, banter, etc. If anyone here really thinks they have a solid enough argument to support any "hoax" theory, etc., they can certainly find any number of radio shows that would be glad to host a debate with me. For that matter, anyone fired up enough to want to show me a thing or two in person is welcome to arrange a public debate, etc. I'm not holding my breath on either option. I already live a real, very engaged life that has, for decades, found me in public presenting the information and answering all challenges…absent the presence of the always welcome skeptical "experts".

Thanks for your time.


Michael Horn
Authorized American Media Representative
The Billy Meier Contacts
www.theyfly.com

Ms Emma Peel said...

"France will not only be invaded by the aggressors from the outside, but will also be conquered from within as a result of collaborative forces and other forces".
last time I checked,France was a sovereign & secular country,so far,no "invasion" has been reported.

"And it will be that the fanatics of Islam will rise up against the countries of Europe and all will shake and quiver. Everything in the West will be destroyed; England will be conquered and thrown down to the lowest level of misery. And the fanatics and warriors of Islam will retain their power for a long time.".
Unfortunately Meier racist & xenophobic statements are not supported by the facts.
According to the French National Institute on demographic studies & the National Institute on Statistic & economic studies,there are 2,1 millions Muslims in France
(French nationals of Muslim confession).73 % of them are favorable to the separation of State & religion,& 91 % are favorable to gender equality.

"the obviousness and accuracy of which will be self-evidence, if it already isn't". Michael Horn,I suspect you of having post mortem telepathic communications with the late William Luther Pierce. Check mate...




FlightSuit said...

Sorry we insulted your religious beliefs, Michael Horn.

I can't help but notice some irony, though, in the fact that you are here, working yourself into a lather because we've insulted your religion, yet in the same breath, you've posted two paragraphs worth of Islamophobic fear-mongering.

Two paragraphs worth of factually untrue Islamophobic fear-mongering, to be precise. England and France have not, in fact, been conquered by Islam.

Now then, Mr. Horn, can we assume that you agree with Bruce that a vast conspiracy of anti-Meier operatives have published a children's dinosaur book with a retroactively fraudulent first printing date on it?

Or do you admit that Billy Meier faked his dinosaur photo by photographing a page from a children's dinosaur book?

Julian Janssen said...

Is it just me or do the insults and the references to stalking of sylvie82311 sound similar to things that Bara has said abt you and other critics?

expat said...

Hi Julian, I don't get the reference. Maybe I'm not up on the latest internet memes...?

Binaryspellbook said...

Profile of the Sociopath

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning

They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self


Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."


Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions

When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.


Irresponsibility/Unreliability

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.



Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.


I could name a few on the "UFO" circuit that the above describes fairly well. Not just Hoagland and Bara.

DJE

Chris Lopes said...

Yes, Hoagie and Bara are hardly unique in the pseudoscience world for being sociopaths. It takes a certain kind of personality to spin the kind of yarns such people spin and take money from nice naive people under false pretences. To knowingly tap into primal fear (they're coming to get you!), and hatred of the "other" (NASA, the Masons, the govimint) for financial gain requires the total abolition of anything most people would see as ethics. Maintaining the lie (and the flow of cash) is the only thing that counts. That is the nature of the business.


Trekker said...

Flightsuit, have you seen this?

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/michael_horn.htm

Just one of many in the UFO Hall of Shame!

Bruce said...

Flightsuit, if you have any interest in the explanation for the Dinosaur photo forgeries

http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/The_Pteranodon_Photo

And you have yet to comment on a single one of the 3 documented corroborations I've presented here. I'll assume that's because you can't handle the truth because it clashes with your biases and assumptions, and it's far easier to present 2nd hand false debunking efforts rather than to do the work for yourself and by yourself.


Ms Emma Peel/Tara Jordan, whatever your latest made-up anonymous internet handle is: I don't recall you demolishing anything except spewing ad hominem vitriol as you do here, and quite short of facts. All your invective is most certainly a pathetic smoke screen as a result of no reasonable answer to the 3 latest ironclad cases presented and documented here with links, and easily verifiable even for the likes of someone with their head stuck up their know-nothing arse, yet posing as another dime-a-dozen internet know-it-all.

Stick to the facts, missy.

I've presented them. If you want to attack something, attack what I've presented else I'll keep assuming you are another internet loser.

expat said...

WARNING: I'm going to close down this Billy Meier thread fairly soon, perhaps in 24H. It seems to be getting acrimonious and I'm not that interested anyway.

So get your best shots in pretty damn quick.

Trained Observer said...

The Billy Meier UFO cult is a religious organization in which Meier functions as high priest and prophet as the reincarnation of both Jesus Christ and Mohammad. Meier goes up to the mountain like Moses, then reappears with photos, recordings, and new proclamations from the deities or in this case E.T.s. The "ray-gun" and the "wedding cake" photos are painfully obvious fakes requiring nothing short of religious faith to take as anything other than a shameless scam. There are several deconstructions of these infamous photographs available on the Internet for anyone who cares to look for them.

Michael Horn said...

Dear Expat,

As you have expertise in some areas of spaceflight, I would ask why you wouldn't be interested in the Meier information?

Of course you may not know if it's true or not but the few links that have been provided by Bruce and me could certainly assist you to make an informed determination.

This also may prove helpful:

http://www.theyfly.com/scientific-experts-comments-meiers-evidence

Best,

MH

expat said...

Michael: There are several reasons.

1] I absolutely, ABSOLUTELY do not believe Billy has truly contacted Plejaren. I think this is a lie, and it therefore casts doubt on other parts of his story which might otherwise be worthy of consideration.

2] I'm fairly familiar with European society and, like Emma Peel, I know for sure that Billy's predictions of doom for France and England are false.

3] Your debating style is not as nasty or insult-filled as is that of Mike Bara, but I don't like your ad hominems much.

4] This blog is not about you or Bruce or Billy Meier.

Michael Horn said...

Expat,

What we "believe" is irrelevant. Meier's volumes of prophetically accurate info speaks for itself. And now so do scientists like Dr. Weinstein.

What one "knows for sure" may simply not be so, or prove not to be, time will tell. But of course it begs the question that if you're so sure without producing any track record of verifiable accuracy for others to consider (such as Meier has done in abundance) then your sureness amounts only to...belief.

Also, while I know it's not of interest to you, which is fine of course, thinking something is a "lie" - when decades of investigation (of which you are unaware) easily disprove that - also falls into the belief category.

As for debating style, first, I didn't find any ad hominems in my post; there are criticisms that one can disagree with. Secondly, there's really no debate here. None of the vocal (and honestly somewhat nasty) opponents of the Meier case are in any way equipped to "debate" it. If they were, I'd have been/be encountering them in actual public debates.

But this is the world of the internet and armchair experts; I'm afraid we're stuck with that. However, it doesn't appear that any of the folks have any serious credentials in anything relevant to discussing the case.

I do thank you though for your courtesy and giving some space here for a little "exposure"...if not actual discussion.

Best,

MH

Bruce said...

Expat, a couple things:

If Meier is not in contact with Plejaren, how did he otherwise get the precise info that Asteroid 1950 DA would fly by earth in mid-March 2880, thirteen or so years ahead of NASA calculations?

If he is not in contact with human beings from another star system, how did he pass on the size of Apophis that earth astronmers had pegged 25% smaller until Apophis flew by & then they upped it to very close to the 350 meters Meier said it was?

If Meier is not in contact with extraterrestrials who can travel freely through time and through space, how did he know the object that smashed into the Yucatan Peninsula 66 million years ago, killing the dinosaurs was a comet & not an asteroid, something finally confirmed only recently, some 35 years after Meier wrote about it?

Regarding those "Prophecies" about England and France .. they are Prophecies and not Predictions. Prophecies are only possible outcomes dependent on still uncertain causes. Those were ancient prophecies he was passing on, nothing etched in stone. However, elements of at least the prophecy for France most certainly rhyme.

Trekker said...

Expat, here's a good summary of the hoaxing and fakery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI5B5JuihBI

FlightSuit said...

Wow, Bruce, that explanation Billy Meier gave sounded like the type of lie that a child or a cheating husband would make up.

As to your statement, "I'll assume that's because you can't handle the truth because it clashes with your biases and assumptions..."

Well, as Expat says, that's unnecessarily vitriolic and dramatic of you. You shouldn't get so angry at somebody for not believing something when the burden of proof is entirely on your shoulders.

And no, I'm not ignoring your alleged proofs because they would rock my world; I haven't addressed them because I don't know much about astronomy or asteroids or comets. I figure it's better to leave such things to the people here who are knowledgeable about those fields.

I'll just stick to the obvious, childlike lies that even a layman like me can easily discern.

PS: Why are you calling Tara "Missy"? Do you think she has less of a right to question you because she's female?

Ms Emma Peel said...

Billy Meier`s photos of babes from space & aerodynamical toilet rubber seats, bore me to death.What I want to see, are pictures of one-legged men riding Unicorns.

FlightSuit said...

And speaking of Tara, she just provided me with this link to the hilarious story of another Meier photo hoax:

http://www.iigwest.com/investigations/meier/asket_nera_deconstruction.html

Kinda funny how they've got him on record, writing letters saying how pleased he and his ET friends are with the book containing the hoax photo. There's absolutely no hint that he's at all troubled by the possible lack of veracity of any of the images.

But then, suddenly, when the Dean Martin Variety Show video tape is released, and it will become obvious that his "alien" photo is actually of performers from an episode of that show, Meier completely changes his tune.

Now it's the Men In Black who switched the photo. Never mind the fact that he himself had already looked at that photo and totally vouched for it.

To Bruce and Mr. Horn, I have to ask, how do you do the mental gymnastics necessary for you to suspend common sense long enough to tell yourself that you believe Billy's explanation?

Doesn't it hurt inside to do this to yourself?

Mr. Horn, regarding your claim that your beliefs are valid because nobody has debated you in public, isn't that what's happening right here, right now?

And if you mean a face-to-face debate, like, at a UFO conference or something, I'm sure you would perform smashingly in such a debate, because you would employ the Gish Gallop technique.

Being able to baffle 'em with bullshit by Gish Galloping is not the same thing as being right.

Anonymous said...

Billy Meier is a fraud. His pictures of "ufos" have been shown to be fakes, as was his picture of alien women were actually women from a tv show. Hes a fraud. And Michael horn knows this.

Bruce said...

Flightsuit,

Regarding Ms Emma Peel, Tara Jordan, ... who knows if this loud-mouthed noxious know-nothing posing as an anonymous internet know-it-all is a man, a woman, a boy, a girl, a hermaphrodyte, etc.


It sounds like you and I probably have about the same knowledge in astronomy. It doesn't take an astronomer to comprehend that Meier's (precise) information was years & decades ahead of what was later discovered by earth scientists.

How is that possible if he is lying like a child/cheating husband?

The burden of proof is not on my shoulders. I've presented 3 instances of scientific confirmation of what Meier wrote. There are many many many more. You can chose to it ignore it because of nonsense & lies written on some internet page, but the truth of the matter will not go away.

Not a single person here has had a single thing to say about these scientific confirmations because there is no arguing with the facts and the truth of the matter so they just rehash old and tired innuendo and lies found on the internet and put forth and promoted by various people with various agendas.

Ms Emma Peel said...

Bruce,Aka the exuberant poodle.
If Ms Emma Peel,Tara Jordan was a transsexual from Alabama, with hair on his (her) chest & sweaty armpits,that wouldn't change anything to the fact that you are an intellectual simpleton, with an IQ 3 degrees below dog shit. Both Billy Meier`s former wife & his son, have publicly stated that the man was a con artist.Case closed.....

Trained Observer said...

All of this begs the question, "Do Meier and Horn believe their nonsense?" I think the answer is No and Yes. No, Meier doesn't. He has obviously manufactured fake UFO photos as well other incredibly silly things like the Dean Martin Gold digger and dinosaur photos. Meier knows he is perpetuating a fraud. Horn on the other hand speaks like a true religious convert, his faith forcing him to rationalize away the embarrassingly obvious charlatanism displayed in Meier's photographs and claims. On some level he probably realizes that much of it is indefensible, but the hope that some of it isn't keeps him with a hand in the game. These prophecies he likes to talk about were written in Meier's German dialect. If I'm not mistaken he is reading English versions that have been translated by the faithful. Just when these things were written and what they actually say is of course for them to say.

Bruce said...

Not a single one of you has addressed the facts of the 3 instances I've presented here.

You've all avoided them in lieu of rehashing 2nd hand, old, tired links, full of disinformation, lies, distortions, etc.

Expat, thanks for having me. Ciao.


expat said...

Right, well, that seems an appropriate note on which to declare THIS THREAD IS NOW CLOSED.

In cutting off this dialog I am not censoring anybody, or favoring one side of the dispute over the other. I am simply controlling the content of my blog. Thanks to all.

Ross Marshall said...

RE: Hoagland's lack of interests in his followers and web site: Topic is a good one - some speculations: First off age has a lot to do with interests. I'm just about 59 and am slowing down a little compared to a decade ago. I do more, but tire easier. RICHIE "looks" ?? about 75-80, grey hair, teeth falling out and enough wrenkles to compete with the Martian Valles Marineris‎. Let's give him a break, for after all, I do envey him as an entertainer at least. If it wasn't for him and the Stekling and Leonard guys, I would not have pursued planetology. :o)
The only shame is I spent the last half UNLEARNING the BS!