He's definitely taking some pleasure in the sound of his own voice. Re-running old episodes of Ancient Aliens and gushing on FuckBoo "I LOVE watching myself on TV. Seriously. It never gets old." But he definitely seems annoyed:
"A new truth I have learned from being an author; the world is sure full of demented fucktards."
"[the critics] are lying sacks of sh**"
I can't think who he's talking about. Certainly not Stuart Robbins and me. We're not demented fucktards, and we're not liars. A demented fucktard would be someone who writes that oceans look dark from space because the light has to travel all the way to the bottom of the ocean and back, and it gets tired. A liar would be someone who... let's see, perhaps deliberately misquotes his own book to try and cover up a crashing, screaming error.
Update:
Charles Sokasian has provided a possible clue as to Bara's mood today. Read his comments on this blogpost.
175 comments:
You might want to check the Paracast radio show Forums : http://www.theparacast.com/forum/threads/mike-bara-p.11664/
Most posters are giving Mike Bara a really hard time, basically implying that Bara is either a crackpot or a fraud.
Thanks, Tara, I enjoyed that. I'd go on Paracast as long as I could maintain anonymity.
Your's and Stuart Robbin's biggest sins are of O'mission; selectively isolating a certain set of facts, out of context, while ignoring crucial data, as with Jim Berkland, for instance.
Expat. It doesn't make any difference for Mike Bara if you`re anomymous or if you are critical of his "researches" (dysfunctional garbage) under a real identity.On Facebook, Professor snake oil peddler accused me of being "an Expat fake account" & a NASA shill. We should petition Paracast to get you on
It may make no difference to Mike, but the producers of Paracast may demur at having a pseudonymous main guest. Once again, I insist on anonymity for these reasons:
1) Both Hoagland & Bara have specifically threatened me with legal action. I don't think they stand a chance of succeeding, and I seriously doubt that either of them is flush enough to retain counsel, but if it ever did happen it would obviously turn my entire life upside down.
2) Both of them take any opportunity for ad hominem mockery. You need look no further than Mike Bara's blog to see what fun he had with Stuart Robbins' photo. IT'S NOT ABOUT ME.
"IT'S NOT ABOUT ME"
That's the thing. I had a very long (and fruitless) exchange with Hoagland about that with regards to James Concannon. He kept claiming that knowing James' identity was important to the discussion. I countered that his identity would not change the arguments he was making as he was not asking anyone (unlike Hoagland) to take his word for it. Hoagland's response was to knit a flag while while talking about being able to "face his accuser". He never seemed to understand that the accuser in this case was reality.
Even his Facebook 'friends' are not immune. He's just called one of them an 'AssFace', for the crime of pointing out that it's he, Mike, and his charming brother who hurl the insults.
It would be extremely difficult -quasi impossible for Bara & Hoagland to engage legal action against you any individual critical of their "researches" ,since both of them are public figures & professional authors-lecturers.They make a living out of publishing & conferencing,& being subject to criticism comes with the territory. If you live in the US,you`re protected by The First Amendment
From the start, Hoagland threatened all kinds of action for which he had no grounds. He's not even smart enough a poker player to know not to bluff unless he is dealing the cards, which he isn't.
Is Stuart Robbin so ignorant that he isn't aware of the gravitational effect of the Sun and the Moon on ocean tides, or is he simply an ignoramus?
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/02/us/syzygy-when-high-tides-run-very-high.html
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/significant/sig_1987.php
Most high school graduates, having had at least one science class, learned that a cubic foot of fresh water at standard conditions of temperature and pressure weighs 62.4 pounds. That fact may have little impact on you unless you have carried buckets of water for livestock, or for landscape irrigation, or for camping, or have packed "Indian tanks" on your back for firefighting. I have participated in all of those activities and I have a healthy respect for water weight.
As a geologist I have appreciated the importance of underground water pore-pressure in de-stabilizing hill slopes, and I have participated with engineers and other geologists in preparing plans and procedures for controlling concentrations of water to prevent damage of various kinds to both natural landscapes and artificial constructions.
In relatively recent years it has been recognized that water can be an important factor relative to triggering earthquakes, although each step along the way has been highly controversial at the outset. Now it is generally accepted that pumping fluids in or out of deep wells can stimulate earthquakes. Often construction of large dams and reservoirs is also associated with subsequent earthquakes (R.I.S.), even in areas that have been historically stable.
Similarly there are a number of significant papers in the scientific literature that show clear correlations between earthquakes and local flooding or unusually heavy and prolonged precipitation.
[continues]
[continuing]
Furthermore, the rhythmic oscillations of tide waters have been studied as another means of triggering earthquakes in Coastal areas. Several hundred articles in the world's scientific literature have explored this mechanism, along with the undulatory effects of "earth tides" that affect the interiors of continents, more than a thousand miles from the seashore.
These tidal effects are mainly the result of the phases of the Moon, although the Sun contributes about 42 per cent to the range of ocean tides. When the Earth is in a tug-of-war between the Sun and Moon, the earth tides can attain three feet, and in sea coast areas of unusual topography, such as in the Bay of Fundy, the ocean tides can range more than 50 feet in a six hour period. (Contrast this with the island shores of the mid-Pacific, where tides may range less than two feet.)
All this talk of water loading and unloading needs a quantitative basis for clear understanding. There is no question that the crust of the Earth behaves elastically and massive ice sheets depresses it many hundreds of feet. In fact, in Scandinavia and Canada where continental glaciers exceeded two miles in thickness as recently as 12,000 to 18,000 years ago, the solid crust is still slowly rising in response to relief from the great load of ice.
At the Golden Gate, where a normal range in daily tide is four to five feet, the daily difference between high and low tide often exceeds eight feet at the time of a new or full Moon (syzygy.) The range may reach 8.5 to 9.2 feet on the rare occasions when a syzygy occurs on the same day as the monthly closest approach of the Moon to the Earth (perigee.) This rare event takes place only from two to five times per year and the maximum gravitational force between 1600 AD and 2200 AD took place at such a time on January 4, 1912, the day of the strongest West Coast earthquake in two years. Was this just coincidence? Let us analyze some forces that may cause old Mother Earth to "slip a disk" (or a plate?):
One acre = 43,560 sq. ft. ; One acre-foot of water = 43,560 cu. ft.; x 62.4 lbs./cubic foot = 2,714,439 lbs. = 1,357.22 tons
One square mile =640 acres; 640 x 1,357.22 tons = 868,620 tons/ ft. (of pure water)
Sea water (specific gravity 1.035) weighs more. 1.03.5 x 868,620 = 899,022 tons/sq. mi. (per foot of sea-water). In addition, for each foot of cold turbid sea-water (maximum density at 39.4F), the load for each square mile would be about 920,000 tons. To make it memorable, I refer to the loading as "nearly 1 million tons per square mile."
Now look at the 500 square miles of the San Francisco Bay and Delta, where eight to nine feet of saline water surges back and forth within a six-hour cycle:
9 ft. x 500 sq. mi. x 1 million tons equals a rapid load change totaling about 4.5 BILLION tons No wonder Mother Earth occasionally slips a disk in the San Francisco Bay Area!
By: James O. Berkland
http://web.archive.org/web/20040403200603/http://www.syzygyjob.org/Proofs/waterwt.shtml
There's a difference between hypothetical possibility, even when it has a mechanism, and what the data show. I don't see you actually analyzing 50,000 earthquakes for the last century and seeing if they line up with syzygy.
Misti: The CONTEXT of, for example, Bara's comment "..the 1202 alarm that no one could figure out." is page 90 of Ancient Aliens on the Moon. That's the CONTEXT. Since I have the entire book on my desk, I'm in possession of the CONTEXT.
It's a historical FACT that Steve Bales correctly called that the alarm could safely be ignored. That's why Bara's comment, IN CONTEXT, is TOTALLY WRONG.
Re: Update
So Mikey did own mikebara.com. You know, it only costs $7.99/year to renew a domain with godaddy ($15/year for a more reputable service).
This would suggest that Mikey didn't have $7.99 to rub together when that domain expired.
Tsk, tsk Mikey. What did your mommy tell you about those Vegas strippers again?
Maybe this is what got Mikey all upset.
"Suck my balls you pathetic douchebag."
-Mike Bara
Ancient Aliens Debunked. Good link from Chris Lopes.
Most of the charlatans - so called "ancient aliens experts",like Mike Bara, are 11th Grade ignoramuses who never attended a single class in classical archeology, geology or antiquity studies. Historical records show no interaction whatsoever between human civilizations & Extra terrestrials. At best,the only metaphorical schemes that might be remotly associated with "Extra terrestrials visitations",are creations myths,but these particular creations stories are subject to spiritual,societal & religious interpretations of "space gods".
However I have serious problems with Mike Heiser, his debunking of Sitchin is fairly accurate, but Heiser does it from a Judeo Christian perspective. As a Christian scholar, Heiser is the personification of the academic who leaves his rationality & critical thinking at the door of his church on Sunday
Granted, the film maker has his own woo issues. I think he did a good job though of going through the standard ancient alien "evidence".
Before I forget, I should mention the link I posted is from this thread at "JREF"
@FlightSuit
Mike Bara homophobic rhetoric & constant references to male genitalia, is the result of a psycho pathological projection.Bara is most certainly a self loathing closet homosexual.
@Chris
You ever check your Email? ;)
Tara - I completely agree with you about Heiser. I referenced him in my podcast episode on Sitchen, and I like that Heiser is willing to go on shows like Coast to Coast and very adamantly show that Sitchen is wrong ... but he definitely has his own sacred cow. It's like how Hoagland and Bara will go after Moon hoax proponents with guns-a-blazin' only to say that we had to have gone to the Moon to get the alien artifacts.
I don't think you even GET on TV without slobbering a few poles - he doth protest too much!
Get ready for the new Elenin!
http://news.sky.com/story/991654/newly-discovered-comet-may-outshine-the-moon
No doubt it will be an intelligently controlled, 19.5 degree, game-changer!
It's going to outshine the moon? I think Hoagland may need to give us another lesson on what "albedo" is!
A Fraud yes, a crackpot...no! He knows like all charlatans where to peddle his form of snake oil. In Ufology the Science that I wish would dare not speak its name. Of course I use the term Science in reference to Ufology figuratively, and indeed in no way was that statement made to imply Ufology is a Science. Just a cash Cow, well if the cow is not being subjected to Alien Mootilations. There you go Mike another subject for your next Bullshit, or indeed Cowpat book.
Expat you use the Science I will use my superpower. Sarcasm.
MB on the other hand will use the block button and his razor sharp repartee. No just the usual "FTard", and you "Trolls". See I told you I was.
I love to play the Devil advocate.In Mike Bara`s defense, I`d like to make the following statement: When one's own credibility becomes such an issue of embarrassment, acting like a hyper emotional prepubescent becomes the diversion
It doesn't make a really strong case that you say this...
Update:
Charles Sokasian has provided a possible clue as to Bara's mood today. Read his comments on this blogpost.
. . . and link to a post from 2010.
Mayvbe you need to fix that......
Michael D, read the comments posted under that 2010 post, and you will see that one of the comments is very recent. That's what Expat was referring to.
@Expat is booked on the Paracast show to present his counterarguments.I should be very interesting.
@Chris Lopes
What about our modest contribution to assist Expat on the archeological perspective (in regard to the Ziggurat,"artificial structures" & Lunar artifacts).
Did Hoagland ever have any other co-authors or ghost writers?
Any opinions of the writing style for 'The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever'?
Haven't read it.
Now isn't that interesting? Paddycakes reads every little blog post of Dickiepoo and arass', reviews Dork Mission, ad nauseam, yet has never even bothered to pick up a copy of Monuments.
Well, there seems to be a lull right now, while Hoagy waits for the prunes to unclog his blockage, why not skim through his first book and let us know what you think of it?
I quite enjoyed "The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever" back when I was very young and gullible.
Hoagland was slightly less insane back then, and I had not yet become a skeptic, so his very appealing arguments were easier for me to swallow.
As for the writing style, it's not radically different from Dark Mission, but if I'm remembering correctly, the book did seem less grammatically troubled than Hoagland and Bara's more recent works.
Misti Farmer is a funny character, but she needs some kind of exposure with humility.
I don't understand the antagonism at all. Why is Misti always angry at everybody?
@FlighSuit
From a dialectical & behavioral perspective, Misti is quite interesting.She is the closest thing to a MIB. She frequently uses semi-profane & (or) lewd language,incoherent rhetorics & always drops out of nowhere ;)
How ever could a hack like Hoagy be able to write Monuments, his earlier work, in better form than his latter drivel, without falling back on a ghost?
The fucking thing's over 600 pages. No, I'm not going to read it.
Yeah, but there's lots of pictures.
You have no chance to tell Expat what does or does not to do about anything, Mistyc, Don´t you hear the cars and the black helicopters coming to your house right now? This is what you get for messing with secret disinformation agents like Hoagland and us ... Booooo ....Scary, isn´t it?
Are you sure that Preston Nichols wasn't Hoagy's first ghost writer?
So book sales equal accuracy? Does Mike really think that because his doorstop of a book made some sales that his argument is valid? in what bizarro world does this make sense other than in Mike's hooker filled, cat hugging, homophobic world?
Who sells more, Mike Bareass or Preston Nichols?
I hug my cat every day and I have friends who are sex workers! I'm not homophobic, however, and my grammar is good.
I read Hoagland's first book (MoM) some years ago and IIRC, it was quite the mess. I don't know if Hoagie had a ghost writer for that one (if he did, I hope he graduated from middle school by now), but I do remember it being very long and very boring. The writing style was pretty much what you'd find in his papers.
DM is a much cleaner work. While it's still full of crap, it's at least readable. So Bara has more writing skill (and a better work ethic) than Hoagland
How did an unpublished Hoagland get his first book deal?
Alan Archer has been doing excellent work over the last month improving and expanding Hoagland's wikipedia page (and I have a feeling he's not done yet.)
As a result we can now see the steady buildup of his magazine pieces during the 70s and early 80s. In that same period he was contracted to NASA GSFC for some technical documentation. It's a fairly safe bet that somewhere in there he ran into a publisher or an agent who bought his spiel about the need for a book, leading to MoM in 1987. What's the betting he delivered the MS six months late?
You`d be surprised to know (some amongst you,probably already know) who sponsored & financed Richard Hoagland when he started to become involved in the Mars debate in 1983. If you know who financed him back then, you also know who is financing him now....
Are you going to tell those of us who don't know, Tara? ;-)
I've never seen that particular Wikipedia page for "Chuckiepoo". I almost go myself kicked out of the computer lab, for laughing out loud, just now.
North Atlantic Books, was the publisher for Monuments. It's located in Berkeley, California, where Hoagland went to school at UC Berkeley, where they have their own, cute little nuclear power plant, and do secret government research.
"Hoagland's" Wiki page seems to have been cleansed of all reference to The Center for Security Policy. I wonder how that could have happened?
{{citation needed}}
As far as anyone (including Hoagland) can tell, Sir Richard of Albuquerque never went to college. If you have different information, I'd like to see it and where it comes from.
Hoagy told me personally, that he attended UC Berkeley. He never claimed to have obtained a degree.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/hoagland_owls.htm
from Odessa 322 Website
recovered through WayBackMachine Website
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Richard C. Hoagland is an agent of influence for the Center for Security Policy.
Hoagland's handler is Dr. George A. Keyworth II, former science advisor to President Ronald Reagan.
The Center for Security Policy uses Hoagland and his "Enterprise Mission" to bolster public interest in Mars exploration in order to apply pressure to President Bush to support a significant increase in funding for the space program under the auspices of Project Prometheus.
The goal of Project Prometheus is the development of enabling technologies for the military control of space under the cover of peaceful space exploration.
The program has the backing of Vice President Dick Cheney and NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe.
NEWS & UPDATES
Parallel operation to "Martian revelations" policy: Center for Security Policy scares soccer moms with asteroid hysteria.
President Bush under pressure to announce expanded space program (National Review Online).
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2003/01/24
Date: 01-24-03
Host: George Noory
Guests: Open Lines
"This is a defining moment," said Richard Hoagland (enterprisemission.com(1)) kicking off Friday night's program. He was on the air to spearhead support for Project Prometheus, NASA's recently announced nuclear-powered propulsion system which could triple the speed of current space travel. Hoagland suggested listeners email or fax the White House endorsing Prometheus and missions to Mars that could be facilitated by this technology. He believes it is crucial to do this before Pres. Bush's State of the Union address on Tuesday. Click here(2) to send your email.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Security_Policy#Prominent_members
Prominent members
Jack Dyer Crouch, II, former Deputy National Security Advisor
Monica Crowley, talk radio host
Douglas J. Feith, former Undersecretary of Defense for Policy
Frank Gaffney, Project for the New American Century
Caroline Glick, American-Israeli journalist for Makor Rishon and deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post,
Richard C. Hoagland, author and conspiracy theorist
Linda Moulton Howe, contributing correspondent to Coast to Coast AM
Laura Ingraham, talk radio host[4]
Richard Perle, former chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee and United States Assistant Secretary of Defense
James G. Roche, former United States Secretary of the Air Force
http://web.archive.org/web/20040110012158/http:/www.geocities.com/odessa_322/owls.html
Word Salad
Hoagland has said many things that aren't really true.
In December 1983 upon a meeting at Institute for the Study of Consciousness Berkeley (founded by Arthur M Young) with former intelligence officer Paul Shay (SRI vice president for corporate affairs),Hoagland received $50,000 from the SRI (Stanford Research Institute) & formed the Independent Mars Mission with physicist Lambert Dolphin Jr.
Many amongst Hoagland early "associates" & "professional contacts" (SRI,Institute for Noetic Sciences etc...) were individuals & (or) organizations associated to the CIA & the defense community.
These organizations & "scientific institutes" were cover fronts for the CIA & the defense community to conduct elaborate psychological-social experiments
The notorious SRI (Stanford Research Institute) who initiated remote viewing experiments under the under the auspices of the CIA & the Defense Department
Since I have no intention on hijacking Expat`s Blog,I wont list all the individuals & institutions who became associated or collaborated with Richard Hoagland during the early years of his "Mars years".I`ll leave it to Expat & the rest of debunking community to do the researches & home-works.
Just looked at Facialbook. Mikey's got himself a way with the ladies. Plus, he's a lot fatter than the picture on his own site. Ron Jeremy better watch out. :))
@Tara Jordan
Links please.
@Misti (from that link)
As a result, NASA is viewed by much of the general public as being synonymous with space. Support space exploration? Support NASA!
No S**t Sherlock. Somebody nominate this guy for the Nobel Prize.
@Tara
Oops. Found the link from Misti's earlier post. More conspiracy nonsense from the Big Man himself.
Ooops again!
I stand corrected. That fat guy is Mikey's brother.
Anyway, sit back and enjoy some recent pictures of Mikey's successful career.
https://www.facebook.com/mike.bara/photos
Here's one of his love interests. Pinups for Ron Paul 2012.
http://www.dawnmarieanderson.com/the-act-of-play.html
Very, interesting, Tara.
Hoagland drums up support for NASA, by making outrageous claims that NASA wouldn't dare to make. There likely is an internal struggle between special interest groups within NASA for control of the agency. I don't think Hoagland's group is the good guys, anymore than is the group that seems to think that NASA can do no wrong.
Mike Bara posted this in Facebookistan last week:
"NOTICE: Any person and / or institution and/or Agent and/or Agency of any governmental structure including but not limited to the United States Federal Government also using or monitoring this website or any of its associated sites DO NOT have my permission to use any of my profile information nor any of the content contained herein including, but not limited to my photos, and / or the comments ma
de about my photos or any other "picture" of art posted on my profile. You are hereby notified that it is strictly prohibited to disclose, copy, distribute, disclose or take any other action against me with regard to this profile and the contents herein. The previous prohibitions also apply to your employee, agent, student, or any personnel under your direction or control. The contents of this profile are private and confidential information and sensitive."
By way of explanation he later added "I'm laying this out for people who aren't my friends on this social network."
Oops, silly me -- I've violated his terms of use already.
Neville, it's really funny that Bara thinks a piece of copied and pasted status update spam is somehow going to supersede Facebook's Terms of Service. A lot of people on my friends list have posted the exact, same notice that Bara posted, and they're all idiots if they think it's going to have any effect on how their information is used, much less give them some kind of legal standing if it's used in a way they don't approve of.
I'm laughing at Bara for being just another chump so propagates status update spam on Facebook.
FlightSuit,
I was about to make that very same point. Hoagland also thinks his FB page belongs to him, but as you point out, it (thanks to the ToS) all belongs to Face Book. As long as Bara and Hoagland insist on using their servers and code, neither one has the right to dictate any kind of copyright limits on the material posted (by them or others) there.
@Misti
If you go to the genesis of the Mars ordeal that started in mid 70`s with individuals like James Hurtak (Hurtak was the man who originally refered to the Face on Mars as "Sphink like" & back in 1975 Hurtak "predicted" the existence of a Sphinx image on Mars),you`ll find some prominent members of the school of "new Egyptologists" who generated the Egypt-Giza-Mars connections storyline.Some of these individuals were also connected to the SRI & various CIA sponspored scientific institutes (Schor Foundation-Florida State University etc..)Also involved were Remote viewers (& former US Army ambiguous characters) such as Schnabel,Morehouse.Mc Moneagle,Ed Dames.
So Tara, what are we to make of this supposed CIA connection? I tend to think of the CIA as being a pretty no-nonsense organization. Why would they want to have anything to do with Hoagland or any of his fellow Mars Face believers?
I've certainly seen people on the Web suggest that Hoagland is a disinfo agent, but to my mind, that's almost as far-fetched as any other conspiracy theory.
Yes, Hoagland is technically spreading disinformation every time he makes a statement that is untrue, but to suggest that he's doing so as part of a government conspiracy?
What would be the goal?
More importantly, do we have solid evidence for this government connection?
@Flighsuit
Pyschological experiments,which the intention of creating
"new religions" & societal mass control mecanisms.Take a look at what we inherited since the mid 70`s (& I am not even talking about the UFO-New Age fields),a large proportion of the Western public believe in Space gods- ancient Aliens, Egyptian-Sumerian-Mars connections....A brand new religion
@FlightSuit
Dont call it "government conspiracy", these are "governmental programs" from which the general public is unaware of. Just like the US government psychotronic experiments & human behavioral modification of 1960`s-1970`s
You tell me why the CIA would sponsor Scientific institutes involved in remote viewing experiments,studies of consciousness,paranormal phenomenas etc...The SRI which has been the major player in this game, was also involved in researches & project creations for DARPA
As an amusing diversion to while away a few minutes, I did an online search of the Chapters bookshops within a hundred kms of home, to see how many were stocking copies of Ancient Aliens.
Out of 61 stores, only six had copies, and only one copy each at that! For added amusement, they're shelved under 'New Age and Occult', not 'Science', (as I imagine Mike would have liked).
Before dismissing my theories as Crackpotism,please consult the CIA, Defense Dept records.Throughout official statements & FOIA requests, they have released documents acknowledging researches & experiments into the Occult,parapsychology,paranormal,psychological experiments using UFO lore, New Age concepts etc...One of the most publicized programs was the bizarre First Earth Battalion project that took place at the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center & School at Fort Bragg.It is a matter of public records that both the CIA & the US army had explored New Age, Occult & paranormal concepts for practical,operational,psychological & tactical applications.
I intentionally refrained from mentioning the Remove Viewing program at Standford Research Institute (co-sponsored by the Defense Dept & the CIA), because it was without any doubt the most publicized ( at least in terms of mainstream media coverage).Most of the participants from the RV program (all of them,former military & intelligence officers) eventually became prominent & influential spokespersons for the UFO community.
Thank you Tara, very much. This will keep my busy for awhile. I find it just as interesting how people like to try and dismiss what you say, yet accept blindly, anything coming out of NASA and totally ignore everything about the X-37B and Monuments of Mars.
Tara, also the Soviet Union had an even more substantial parapsychology R&D program, so naturally during the Cold War especially, the US military couldn't permit a psi-corp gap. No doubt this research contributed substantially to applicable techniques of propaganda, or disinformation as Hoagy likes to call it; like the pot calling the kettle, black.
@Misti
Thank you.This is essentially my beef with the debunking community.
Debunkers & their arch-enemies (the UFO buffs & pseudo science believers) pretty much behave in the same way, when challenged & confronted by extreme critical thinking.Denial.....(cannot really blame them since denial is a natural& fundamental part of the psychological defensive mecanism).
The debunking community is relentlessly willing to "investigate the paranormal, fringe science, pseudoscience,& extraordinary claims of all kinds, promote critical thinking", yet debunbers take anything for granted as long as it comes from "official channels", & are extremely reluctant to question & deconstruct the political establishment shenanigans. Deceptions & manipulations are essential elements of the governing process.
Look no further than the Pentagon Papers,the Iraqi aluminium tubes,the yellow cakes & weapons of mass destructions fairy tales, etc...you may call use the term "conspiracies" but these happened to be real governmental programs with the sole intention of deceiving & manipulating public opinion.
But to be clear,I dont think that NASA as an insitution,or most people working for the CIA & Defense Department are aware about what is going on behind the scene. Given the institutional secrecy,the size of the government bureaucracy and high degree of compartmentalization that exists within it,most people dont have a clue about what is going on next door.
Tara, back when I was a True Believer, I used to have similar feelings about debunkers. I don't feel that way any more, because most of what I've seen of the skeptic community has been pretty honest. Sketpicism is just a process of asking good questions, really.
@FlightSuit.
The only difference is, I have never been a "believer". We alrealdy had this conversation on your site.I refuse to swallow the garbage that comes out of the New Age-paranormal-UFO communities, but I am equally inquisitive & critical of what originates from "official channels".Call me extra skeptical;)
Tara, I am confused when you say "we already had this conversation on your site."
What site are you referring to? I do have a couple of Google Blogger blogs, but I definitely haven't talked to you or anybody else on those blogs about the matters we're discussing here.
Have you and I talked on Facebook? Or are you possibly mistaking me for somebody else?
FrightSoot, obviously, Tara is talking about this blog, and other contributors here. She can't mean you, because you never offer anything of interest. Scroll down.
Misti, I do not understand why you're hostile toward me or anybody else here. What is the reason for this?
@FlightSuit "Or are you possibly mistaking me for somebody else". I think I did. My apologies ;).
@Misti.You don`t have to be so aggressive;).We don`t need to agree with each other in order to respect each other,or at least engage & exchange in a civilized manner.I think you`d agree that Expat provides a platform for freedom of speech. He doesn't necessarily always agree & enjoy our contributions, but he is not preventing us from expressing ourselves.
Tara, I totally agree with what you say, but FrightSoot is completely worthless.
No one likes you, Mr. Mister!
Misti, if I've said something that's upset you, perhaps we should address the matter directly?
Beyond that, you should learn to play nicely with others. Your hostility does not serve you well. It just adds to the perception that you're kind of nutty.
FrightSoot, you are completely inconsequential and others can either stand up for themselves, or simply fall of their own weight.
Why can't you all just get along with Hoagland and Bara? Or wouldn't that be hypocritical enough for you, FrightSoot?
I'm trying to figure out what you mean, Misti. Are you saying it would be hypocritical for you to be civil towards me because you and I have some great philosophical or factual disagreement which is as great as the ones separating Expat from Hoagland and Bara?
I think that's what you're implying, but I'm not sure. If that is the case, what do you see as being our major disagreements?
It's kind of hard for me to guess, because I honestly don't know what you believe. I just know that you seem to be very angry at people for no reason that I can discern. Have I ever insulted you without realizing it? If I have, I'll apologize.
It's like Tara says, you pick on Hoagy but not on NASA. That's hypocritical.
Let's try this again.
Why don't you guys hold NASAss' butt to the fire, about not releasing all the images in the archive; particularly any time they filter out green and blue with red on pictures of Mars, without explanation for the reason, and without side by side comparison of the original image?
Do you think nobody notices how you all duck direct questions, just like Hoagland does?
Scroll down.
@Misti To set the record straight,
1)I neither blamed-attacked FlighSuit nor NASA in particular.I was critical of the Debunking community & its sacro saint symbiotic relationship with the "mainstream intellectual establishment",& its reluctance to question "authority".
2) I`m not going to post any longer on this Blog.My politically incorrect comments are at best ignored or at worst taken out of context.
Since I am at it,I have a question for Chris Lopes.You gave me your email(for the purpose of archeological anthropological chitchat),I mailed you twice, never got any response,& recently you ignored the comments I am addressing you on this blog.I never intended on having an extramarital affair with you, but I have questions about your attitude
Tara, I enjoy your posts and will be sorry to see you leave if you really are leaving.
Misti, I can't say I know too much about these issues you've brought up. I know Hoagland has always claimed NASA is "hiding the true color of Mars," and I know Phil Plait has addressed those claims and I know that I, personally, possess less technical knowledge of the issues involved than either of those people.
Your comment seems to imply, however, that NASA and Hoagland are on equal footing and should be treated equally. In my mind, they kind of aren't.
Anyway, do you think NASA is hiding something?
>>It's like Tara says, you pick on Hoagy but not on NASA. That's hypocritical.<<
No it isn't. NASA doesn't come up with fanciful ideas about anti-gravity and attempt to justify them with atrociously wrong math.
NASA doesn't take a 35-year-old wristwatch up a Mayan pyramid and publish the results as though they were science.
As regards images of Mars, the HiRISE catalog currently has 26,000 excellent images and the library continues to grow. Don Davis is the expert on Martian color. He doesn't run a blog but he's written tons about it.
http://www.donaldedavis.com/PARTS/colors.html
Tara,
I have received no emails from you.
Thanks FlightSuit,you`re quite a Gentleman. I am not a barometer for egocentric activity but it feels good to know I am becoming popular among the debunkers club ;)
@Chris, why don`t you create a Facebook account? its free & only takes a minute to do so. I have a bunch of interesting friends, from field ethno-anthropologists, journalists-writers, to notorious astrophysicist
See Paddycakes, once again you duck the issue. The link you provide does not specifically address the issue. The tax paying American public pays NASA and gets nothing but obfuscation. There is no difference between Hoagland and NASA, except that NASA steals more money. The only difference between NASA, Hoagland, and you, is that you don't charge.
Misti, what is it you think NASA is obfuscating?
Tara, I would add you on Facebook, but I can't figure out which Tara Jordan is you.
FrightSoot, what did I just say? Can't you read? You ask questions, then ignore the answers.
One more FLICK'n time.
NASA releases images of Mars, filtered in red, which absorbs the colors blue and green. NASA does so without explanation as to why they use the filter, or what they are trying to find, by filtering out the green and blue.
Furthermore, NASA fails to provide those same images as they were originally, without the red filtration.
NASA does not say what is green and blue, that they have to filter out. NASA is hiding everything blue and green.
NASA is hiding the vast majority of images in it's archive.
Now here's a question. What could possibly be a good reason, that you would find acceptable, for NASA to have to hide what is green and blue on Mars?
It's like some geezer on a dating site, posting a current image of himself in sepia-tone, and cropping off the top of his head, in order to hide the grey and shiny spots.
Misti: Would you say this is a good example, or just an average example?
How about this?
I take it you believe NASA is filtering out the greens and blues to hide the fact that Mars is teeming with life?
FrightSoot, you are jumping to conclusions. Once again, you didn't answer the question, and neither did you, Paddycakes.
Under what circumstances is it acceptable to you bullshitters, for NASA to present red filtered images of Mars, without any explanation as to what is blue and green that they want to filter out, or the reason for so doing, and why should they not also present side by side with the red filtered image, the original, unretouched image for comparison?
This isn't science. Peers need to be able to recreate the test in order to validate the results, including Hoagland, Bara, or any American citizen who wants to take a crack at it.
Misti old son, the time has come for you to provide an example.
The fact is, that NASA doesn't even know the true color of Mars, because they don't record it with color accurate settings. One more reason why photographs are not acceptable as evidence in a court of law. Of course the standards for scientific proof are much higher than even for a court of law. Hoagland's fallacious use of photographs are just as valid as NASAss', butt you guys kiss NASAss' ass.
http://discovermagazine.com/2004/dec/color-of-mars/article_view?b_start:int=1&-C=
Of course, it's not that NASA doesn't have the capability to record images in accurate color, but if the do, they don't release them. Instead, they provide an approximate grey scale so that peers can create false setting on their own, and NASA can't be blamed for providing altered images.
expat said:
"Misti: Would you say this http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_028598_1900 is a good example, or just an average example?"
Misti Parker says...
Perfect example of arbitrary grey scale approximation of whatever NASA wishes to convey. Pretty colors though, even the white is extra crisp.
@Misti. I used to believe NASA was hiding something about Mars, but after researching the issue in depth,I became more pragmatic & critical of the "life on Mars - ancient ruins" debate.
Having said that,I still have very specific questions about particular "geological formations" on Mars, but the Face, the D&M pyramid, I know there is nothing there (but that`s only a personal opinion).I dont like dropping names on the Internet,but I'm privileged to be a personal friend of Paul Estrada, the main investigator at SETI Institute (Paul was Carl Sagan`s student & assistant,he`s extremely honest & very open minded to the idea of the possibility of "archeological remains or life in Outer Space)& he helped me understanding what "might be there" & "what cannot be there". A couple of months ago,I submitted Paul a little analysis I made about the "Elysium pyramids", to my surprise Paul gave me very interesting feedback & encouraged me to do further research.I am willing to share it with you & show you Paul`s comments & criticisms.
I appreciate that Tara. It sounds most interesting.
I "believe" that David Flynn makes a credible case from a Biblical perspective for there having been life on Mars, but I don't necessarily believe that there actually was.
I certainly do not believe that NASA is at all open or honest in the slightest, but I do believe that NASA as under the DoD is operating in the supposed interests of National Security.
As far as SETI is concerned, that's a bigger scam than NASA; with the sole aim to counter public opinion of reports of extra terrestrial contact.
When the Orbs contacted me, they didn't mention anything about their having to get the okay from SETI, first. I'm really glad that tax payers aren't being bilked to support SETI any longer.
SETI is like the lottery winner who gets the only hunting license in the World. Sets up camp in Yellowstone Park, figuring that that's where the last of the buffaloes will most likely be found, if at all. Then assures all the other sidelined hunters, that there is no need for them to go out scouting around in the Mid-West anywhere, because SETI's got it covered. In the meantime, something is eating all the farmers corn in Nebraska.
Mike has posted a video of his impromptu banquet speech at the Conscious Life Expo (filling for an absent John Major Jenkins.) I've said it before and I'll probably say it again -- judged purely as a performer, he's really pretty good. If only he'd stick to topics he actually knows something about, he'd be OK.
The video is here.
So, Misti old son, you had to reach back to a 1976 image to make your point? I think you're out of date, squire.
>>In the meantime, something is eating all the farmers corn in Nebraska. <<
So, in this analogy, what does the corn-eater represent? Radio signals from extraterrestrial intelligence that SETI is not getting? Who is receiving these signals and why aren't they announcing it?
The Orbs don't use radio, or carry matches, but considering that Steven James Hawkins warns that we ought not talk to ET, I think we'd better send that new sub-light craft out to shoot down Voyager, before it's too late.
NASA and SETI are at best, obsolete.
It's funny. Carl Sagen was touting pyramids on Mars, before Hoagy put the fake-o spin on the subject. Then, curiously one day, Sagen changes his tune about ET, and writes a book about fairy tales.
Was Sagen threatened, or simply bought off? Maybe he was let in on the gag, in exchange for swearing an oath to secrecy?
If the grey scale is even the slightest bit off, that's enough to camouflage particular shades of color.
new sub-light craft
You put stupid stuff up, just to troll Expat!
'Star Trek' fusion impulse engine in the works
It's not quite warp drive, but researchers are hot on the trail of building nuclear fusion impulse engines, complete with real-life dilithium crystals.
by Amanda Kooser
October 2, 2012 10:40 AM PDT
There's a hierarchy of "Star Trek" inventions we would like to see become reality. We already have voice-controlled computers and communicators in the form of smartphones. A working Holodeck is under development. Now, how about we get some impulse engines for our starships?
The University of Alabama in Huntsville's Aerophysics Research Center, NASA, Boeing, and Oak Ridge National Laboratory are collaborating on a project to produce nuclear fusion impulse rocket engines. It's no warp drive, but it would get us around the galaxy a lot quicker than current technologies.
According to Txchnologist, the scientists are hoping to make impulse drive a reality by 2030. It would be capable of taking a spacecraft from Earth to Mars in as little as six weeks.
Related stories
"The fusion fuel we're focusing on is deuterium [a stable isotope of hydrogen] and Li6 [a stable isotope of the metal lithium] in a crystal structure," Txchnologist quotes team member and aerospace engineering Ph.D. candidate Ross Cortez saying. "That's basically dilithium crystals we're using." Let's pause and savor that for a moment. Dilithium crystals. Awesome.
Plenty of obstacles will need to be overcome during the development process. The issue of harnessing fusion is prominent, but there is also the question of turning the power generated by fusion into thrust for an engine. The craft using the impulse drive would also need to be assembled in space, much like the International Space Station.
"Imagine using a 1-ton TNT equivalent explosive and putting it out the back end of a rocket. That's what we're doing here," Cortez says in a press release about the project. Now we can all practice saying "full impulse power" to our imaginary starship navigators.
news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57523867-1/star-trek-fusion-impulse-engine-in-the-works
Channeling Star Trek: Researchers to Begin Fusion Impulse Engine Experiments
September 28th, 2012 | by Michael Keller
Star Trek fans take note: Have a seat before you read the next sentence or prepare to swoon.
University of Alabama-Huntsville (UAH) aerospace engineers working with NASA, Boeing and Oak Ridge National Laboratory are investigating how to build fusion impulse rocket engines for extremely high-speed space travel.
“Star Trek fans love it, especially when we call the concept an impulse drive, which is what it is,” says team member Ross Cortez, an aerospace engineering Ph.D. candidate at UAH’s Aerophysics Research Center.
Stay seated Trekkies, because there’s more.
“The fusion fuel we’re focusing on is deuterium [a stable isotope of hydrogen] and Li6 [a stable isotope of the metal lithium] in a crystal structure. That’s basically dilithium crystals we’re using,” Cortez says, referring to the real-world equivalent of the fictional element used to power Star Trek’s Starship Enterprise.
While this engine, if produced, wouldn’t generate a fraction of the velocity as the faster-than-light warp drives envisioned in the TV shows, books and movies, it could produce speeds that exceed other not-science-fiction-based systems that rocket scientists are investigating.
Their ultimate goal is to develop a nuclear fusion propulsion system by 2030 that can spirit spacecraft from Earth to Mars in around three months—about twice as fast as researchers think they could go with a nuclear fission engine, another scheme that is being investigated but has not yet been built.
Their current design has a spacecraft with the impulse engines being built in low Earth orbit, so the thrusters and ship wouldn’t need to cope with the atmosphere or achieving escape velocity. That doesn’t mean it would be a lightweight when fully assembled, though. Cortez says the craft could tip the scales at almost 500 tons.
Major problems to solve
There’s a big gap between hopes and goals, though. For decades, nuclear fusion researchers have worked to harness the huge amounts of energy generated from slamming atoms together so hard they fuse. Their efforts have led to scientific progress, but the goal of getting more energy out of a fusion reaction than what is required to smash them together at amazingly high speeds has so far proven elusive.
Last week, Sandia National Laboratory investigators said they are getting closer to “break-even,” the holy grail of research that will see the same amount or more energy released from a nuclear fusion reaction than that which was put in.
“We’re interested in deep-space exploration,” says Dr. Jason Cassibry, a UAH engineering professor and the head of the research team. “Right now humans are stuck in low Earth orbit, but we want to explore the solar system. We’re trying to come up with a system that will demonstrate break-even for thermonuclear propulsion.”
To really start getting around the solar system, spacecraft will need to go much faster than they do now.
[continues]
[continuing]
According to astronomy professor Courtney Seligman, the next date Earth will be closest to Mars after the team’s 2030 objective will be in May 2031, when the two planets will be 51.4 million miles apart. For the team’s fusion-powered spacecraft to reach the red planet in three months at that point, it would have to travel at almost 24,000 miles per hour, or about 10 times the muzzle velocity of a bullet fired from an assault rifle.
But Cortez says the fusion impulse craft might be capable of a mind-bending 62,600 mph, nearly the speed the Earth travels in its orbit around the sun.*
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb2khx458G1rpydpj.png
(conceptual diagram of the team’s fusion impulse engine. Image courtesy Ross Cortez/UAH)
Z-pinch fusion and magnetic nozzles
To hit this phenomenal speed, the researchers are investigating something called z-pinch fusion as a source of propulsion. Cortez says the technique takes a cylindrical array of super-thin lithium wires and puts a massive electric current through them. The electricity—millions of amps are being sent through the wires in 100 nanosecond pulses, which could produce 3 terawatts of output power—creates a magnetic field around the array and vaporizes the wires to form plasma. The magnetic field pinches the plasma until it collapses on a core of deuterium and lithium, which they hope will cause its atoms to fuse and result in a massive release of energy.
“What we’re aiming for is to get enough compression and heat in the z-pinch implosion to cause the fusion fuel to react,” Cortez says. “With the energy that would release, we could get millions of pounds of thrust out the back of this thing—on the order of Saturn-V-class thrust.”
After achieving the proper speed, the engines would be shut down and the craft would coast to its target.
Besides figuring out the fusion problem, another obstacle to their goal is how to contain and direct the resulting energy to generate thrust—no small task because the reaction would create temperatures in the millions of degrees Celsius, enough to vaporize any known material. To solve this problem, part of the team is working on another line of research, which seeks to develop a “magnetic nozzle.” This would use directed magnetic fields to guide the energy out of the engine.
“We’re facing some pretty heavy problems to getting this thing working; it won’t be a cinch,” Cortez says. “But we’re very ambitious and we’ve got a lot of great ideas. Put enough bright people to work on it and you’re going to get gold or, in this case, fusion.”
But even if they don’t reach their objective of developing the z-pinch fusion propulsion system, the group’s work will likely be useful in the global effort to develop terrestrial fusion reactors as a source of clean, limitless energy.
The major hurdles have not yet shaken Cortez’s optimism, because he keeps thinking of what success might mean: “How could I not stay interested? With this work, eventually, I might have the chance of seeing Jupiter up close or help humanity colonize Mars.”
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb2ktdtJvm1rpydpj.jpg
(UAH doctoral candidate Ross Cortez assembles a device that generates massive bursts of electricity for fusion propulsion research.)
*UPDATE: This article was changed on Oct. 2, 2012, to reflect a new velocity estimate received by the writer.
Top Image: A conceptual model of the University of Alabama-Huntsville’s fusion impulse propulsion spacecraft. Courtesy Ross Cortez/UAH.
Michael Keller is the Managing Editor of Txchnologist. His science, technology and international reporting work has appeared online and in newspapers, magazines and books, including the graphic novel Charles Darwin’s On the Origin of Species. Reach him at mkeller@groupsjr.com.
txchnologist.com/post/32463368168/channeling-star-trek-researchers-to-begin-fusion
No power figures given.
Estimated travel time to Alpha Centauri - 10,000 years.
Six weeks to Mars by 2030 or 19 weeks to Mars today with the X-37B nuclear powered Project Prometheus.
Bullshit.
Not in my lifetime, or anyone else reading this!
Project Prometheus is a nuclear powered spacecraft, which could easily travel to Mars and back in nine months. The X-37B first launched, disappeared and returned from Space in nine months. You don't need nuclear power to orbit the Earth.
@FlightSuit http://www.facebook.com/CrashandBurnTara
Missions planned to involve Prometheus Nuclear Systems and Technology included:
Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter Exploration of the Jovian moons Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. Originally planned to be the first mission of Project Prometheus, it was deemed too complex and expensive, and its funding was cut in the 2006 budget. NASA instead considered a demonstration mission to a target closer to Earth to test out the reactor and heat rejection systems, possibly with a spacecraft scaled down from its original size.
Bio, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.
Project Prometheus was established in 2003 by NASA to develop nuclear-powered systems for long-duration space missions. This was NASA's first serious foray into nuclear spacecraft propulsion since the cancellation of the NERVA project in 1972. The project was cancelled in 2005. Its budget shrank from $430 million in 2005 to only $100 million in 2006, $90 million of which was for closeout costs on cancelled contracts.
That's about the time that the project went black and Hoagland was ordered to shut up about it. He deletes all facebutt posts about the X-37B and Project Prometheus, without comment.
Misti, you think Hoagland is taking orders from somebody?
You must ask his Pastor, Revrund Bibletard Israelite.
Richard C Hoagland works for the DoD, same as you guys. Preston Nichols wrote Monuments of Mars, and Hoagland put his name on it, in order to become the spokesmodel to discredit Carl Sagan's original work on the pyramids of Mars, by exaggerating and fabricating, so that the public would toss out the Baby Jesus with the Holy Water.
Now, NASA is contaminating the surface of Mars, with unsanitary plastic, so that any bacteria found on the planet, cannot be verified as not having been introduced there, by NASA.
That's right, plastic can't be sterilized. Run your plastic cups through the dishwasher with hot water and soap. They still aren't clean.
The Dod could give a shit about academic research or forensic science, they simply intend to dominate the territory.
news.yahoo.com/bright-object-mars-actually-plastic-curiosity-rover-200931416.html
I am not an employee of the DoD.
Greg Ahrens
In about an hour and 19.5 minutes...
There will be a Curiosity Rover News Teleconference at 11 am PDT (2 pm EDT).
I think they have to do a lot of explaining...
http://www.ustream.tv/nasajpl
Mars Curiosity update from NASA JPL
www.ustream.tv
Curiosity Cam @ Ustream.TV: Curiosity is in the opening days of a two-year mission to investigate whether conditions have been favorable for microbial life...
Mike LeBrasseur
Rover Sits In The Middle Of A Active IRON ORE Mine Site.The Stone Is Washed With Water Which Is In The Shaded Area Of Rover Photos.
The Pixel People -
Ununpentium
Okay Greg, then what you are saying is that NASA is contaminating the planet Mars, with unsanitary plastic. Now, any bacteria found on Mars, cannot be scientifically verified as not having been introduced there, by NASA.
The Pixel People
Hoagy deleted Ununpentium's post from a thread below, so I put it right up here at the top.
The Pixel People
Anything to say about this, Greg?
Greg Ahrens
I don't believe it is a piece of plastic from the space craft.
The Pixel People
Do you believe it to be plastic at all?
Jason Beck
Doesn't look plastic to me, I just thought it a common sense question
Ununpentium
If it is plastic, then Mars is contaminated. They even use the word contaminate when referring to the object in the live feed. NASA obviously wants us to believe that they have contaminated the planet.
Jason Beck
Even its metal, if it fell off the rover wouldn't it still be contamination?
Which brings a question to mind...
How do space agencies such as NASA confirm that any of these probes and rovers aren't contaminated with earthly bacterias, viruses, etc..?
Ununpentium
Supposedly, everything sent to the Moon and Mars from the beginning have been sterilized, specifically to avoid contamination. Conversely, the Moon rocks were even placed in quarantine before they were analyzed on Earth, to avoid a World plague. NASA used to be a very, conservative, safety minded, scientific organization.
Jason Beck I guess "supposedly" is the key word
The Pixel People
NASA want's us to forget about the old scientific controls that they used to employ, or else they want us to complain about how they screw up. It would be easier to eliminate NASA altogether, than to successfully be able to cull out all the corruption. Then, with private enterprise getting all the government contracts for commercialization and the DoD in charge of National Security missions with the X-37B, there will be no need for public TV shows, or anything to be accountable for at all.
You imagine that bacteria on or in pieces of plastic is likely to have survived the radiation, temperature extremes, and vacuum of space? And you further imagine that such bacteria has a chance of not only surviving on Mars, but multiplying at such a rate that it will be later found by a Mars probe and mistaken for Martian life?
And you further imagine that if Martian life is found, NASA wants to trick us into thinking it's actually contamination from Earth?
Because...
NASA would just totally hate the huge increase its budget would receive if it found alien life, right?
Why is it supposedly the routine practice for NASA to sterilize everything that they send to the Moon or to Mars?
I think NASA want's to make it seem as though they are trying to hide life on Mars, so that they don't have to lie directly, in order to create a big boondoggle.
Why is it supposedly the routine practice for NASA to sterilize everything that they send to the Moon or to Mars?
So that NASA does not contaminate the surface of Mars with unsanitary plastic!
Bio, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship.
Tits or GTFO!
What I really wonder now, is what's the real deal with Carl Sagan and his pyramids on Mars? Was he seriously researching them, or was he paid by NASA to do what Hoagland's doing now?
Did Sagan sell out early on, and then have a change of heart about the billions and billions of stars with life, when he wrote about people substituting ETs for elves?
Was Hoagland hired to pick up where Sagan jumped ship? What was the personal and professional relationship between Carl Sagan and Richard C Hoagland?
Hoagland got all upset with me in an email, when I refereed to a 60 Minutes interview with Carl Sagan, where Sagan said that: "If you don't have a PhD, you aren't even IN the debate." Hoagland seemed to think that I was saying that Sagan said that on air, specifically about Hoagland. Honestly, I don't recall the context, and I can't find a clip of that show.
It does seem that Sagan went from being a promoter to a debunker. I wonder what caused him to switch one belief for the other?
referred
Misit, I am curious about this assertion that Sagan apparently said something at some point about pyramids on Mars. Are there references for this? If you've got links, I'd love to check 'em out!
Yeah, Tara alluded to the "Elysium pyramids" above.
The Sagan Pyramids - also known as Mariner 9 4205-78 & 4296-23
mars-news.de/mr9/4205-78.html
In his 1980 book Cosmos, Carl Sagan shows this picture in the chapter Blues for a Red Planet with the image caption "The Pyramids of Elysium". In that paragraph he wrote about a large rover mission which would be of high public interest as live TV-picture would be send to Earth when the rover visits these pyramids. In a footnoote on that page he wrote:
The largest Mars Pyramids have a base width of 3km and a height of 1km, so they are much larger than the Pyramids of Sumer, Egypt and Mexico. With the ancient eroded shape, they could be small hills, sandblasted for centuries, but they need to be viewed from nearby.
Similar images from Mars Global Surveyor
mars-news.de/mr9/4205-78.html#mgs
Thanks Misti! I'm not seeing any clearly unambiguous statement from Sagan saying he thinks it's possible those pyramids are artificial, though.
I can see how one might infer that from what he said, however. But it's ambiguous.
Unless you're aware of more statements he's made about these pyramids?
Really, though, they don't look to me like the perfectly square footprint you'd see looking down at the Giza pyramid from above. And even the five sided one doesn't look perfectly pentagonal from above. They have some edges which are longer than others, and/or edges which are at awkward angles to each other.
That irregularity, to my eye, would tend to be indicative of natural geological formations, as opposed to artificial objects.
Tara is the one who says that she has done more research on the Elysium Pyramids. Perhaps she'd care to share them here?
Has anyone here, actually ever read Cosmos to see if what's on that webpage is the full extent of what he said about the Pyramids of Elysium? Just because FrightSoot doesn't know, doesn't mean that it is. FrightSoot would just sit there and let Planet X crash into his attic, before ever bothering to look out his own window.
Even on that page with the excerpt, Sagan finds the Pyramids of Elysium significant enough to warrant a rover to investigate. How timely, now that we have a brand new one up there right now. Too bad that Curiosity is stuck in that damned crater.
Elysium is "on the menu" for the future.
I can't agree that it's "too bad" Curiosity is in Gale. Gale was the rational first choice of people who know a great deal more than any of us.
What about all of that fake blue stuff, outside the crater, in the other picture you posted Paddycakes?
Yes Misti, I have read Carl Sagan's "Cosmos."
It's been a while, however, and I don't remember him saying anything about the pyramids of Elysium.
If he'd stated or implied that there were artificial structures on Mars (or any place other than Earth), however, I think that is something I would have remembered.
Well as long as you're just sitting on your ass there surfing porn online, why not dust off that book and look it up?
Why do you suppose Sagan singled out the Pyramids of Elysium for the rover to sniff out if it weren't significant? Why does NASA have it on the short list at all? It's a good thing you guys aren't scientific investigators.
I don't know where my copy of Cosmos is. But when you find yours, you might want to see whether Sagan stated his reason for wanting a rover to investigate the pyramids of Elysium.
You might also want to see if he mentioned any other things he'd like for the rovers to check out.
I don't quite get your porn comment, though. What is the point of being so antagonistic toward a perfect stranger who has no desire to fight with you?
I'm not your enemy, Misti.
In the courtroom scene of the movie Contact, based upon the book by Carl Sagan, Jodie Foster is grilled by the Senator, about being delusional, yet nobody comes forth to testify about how the gyroscopic, tele-transportation "Machine" created lightning bolts and damn near capsized the ship in the bay with the crew on board of Mission Control operatives. Do you pseudo scientific researchers here, take issue with Sagan's hypothesis? Does anybody here have a doctorate in a relevant degree from an accredited university?
FrightSoot, how good of friend are you of Hoagland's? Are you saying that I owe you some sort of loyalty just for your being here, or something? What have you ever contributed?
That is to say, the Machine seemed to exert a gravitation effect on the ship, causing the ship to list, just before the capsule dropped.
@ 1:24
Misti, I'm just saying your expressions of hostility and contempt are kind of weird and unwarranted.
You seem to be really invested in the idea that everybody is against you, and that thought becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Either you get it or you don't.
All you manage to do, FrightSoot, is distract from the fact, that either Carl Sagan wasn't the perfect, objective, rational scientist that you claim he was, or else Hoagland isn't all that much less a scientist than was Sagan.
Misti, you are putting words in my mouth. When did I ever make any claims about Carl Sagan?
Somebody here seems to love the hell out of him. Maybe that was Lopes. Now's your big chance, FrightSoot. You could have just told us in your previous post, but then you would have been making an actual contribution here. Your are the one always trying to twist my words around. So tell us then, was Carl Sagan always such a great scientist or not?
I don't know enough about Carl Sagan to answer that question, Misti. I remember watching his Cosmos TV series when I was a child, and I did read an old edition of the Cosmos book about two or three years ago, but I am not a devotee of his career or anything.
I certainly don't feel the adoration he receives is misplaced.
Crickets. All I hear is the sound of crickets. I raise a whole shit load of insightful questions, and all I hear is the sound of fucking crickets.
Misti, just take another look at the stated purpose of this blog. I'm not going to dissect Carl Sagan's career nor am I going to investigate NASA.
Yeah, I getz 'dat. You gotz an axe to grind.
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